|Campy 10spd chain - what tool to break?||KellyCross|
Nov 4, 2002 9:23 PM
|is a standard chain tool ok?|
|re: Campy 10spd chain - what tool to break?||Ken|
Nov 5, 2002 12:01 AM
Nov 5, 2002 6:03 AM
|If you are going to use the link over again, you will need the special Campy tool. If you are going to replace it with a Connex link or something similar, then break it with a screwdriver.|
|Campy 10spd chain and tool selection||Calvin|
Nov 5, 2002 6:27 AM
|In terms of cutting out a link, the "regular" chain tools will surfice. It is Campagnolo's recommendation that only the Campagnolo chain tool be used to install the HD links. Additionally, Campagnolo recommends using the small section of chain provided in the replacement kit. Campagnolo does not recommned re-using either the original rivet nor the original outer side plates.|
Nov 5, 2002 7:10 AM
I've assembled NUMEROUS C10 chains (many many builds) with the CT3 tool and NEVER had a problem. This is in contrast to my personal experience (and many others) of chain failures using the Campy supplied links. I nearly wrecked my KG281 due to one PL failure. BTW, one of the local pro shops assembles C10 chains the same way.
Chain failures can be VERY "rude" so always inspect on a regular basis.
YMMV, and I'm sure someone will say to not assemble C10 chains this way so take this post as JUST my personal experience and not a recommendation. Note Calvin's comments....... lawyers. ;-)
Nov 5, 2002 3:21 PM
|Read Campy's instructions that come with the chain or those available on their website. These instructions cover the proper method of installing the two types of campy connector links.
A standard chain tool will work fine to break the chain for the purpose of removing links to adjust the chain length.
A Wipperman "connex" 10 speed connector link is a great solution to the connector link problem and only costs $5. It's exactly the same width as the campy 10 chain. The link installs without tools and it's reuseable. This link can be installed upside down, which could cause it to come apart. The curved slot in the sideplate must be oriented with the lower edge forming a peak, not a valley.
The chain should not be reassembled without a connector link. Reassembling any of the new flush-pin 10 speed chains in the same manner as the old protruding-pin 7/8/9 speed chains is asking for trouble. The flush-pins are much more heavily peened than older style protruding pins. Whenever the mushroomed end of a flush-pin is pushed through the sideplate, it does a lot more damage to the hole in the sideplate. This damaged hole will not provide any significant hold on the pin, once it's reinstalled. The pin is then restrained from moving in only one direction, which could lead to a painful failure.
|"damaged hole" .............. what a bunch of||JohnG|
Nov 5, 2002 4:45 PM
Your comments clearly point out that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
|on the contrary....||C-40|
Nov 5, 2002 5:48 PM
|I've spent 20 years in the machining of components for aircraft components and ultra-precision parts for nuclear weapons. I'm well-versed on all sorts of manufacturing processes.
I'll be more polite and say that I don't believe that you appreciate the peening process and how it's intended to work. Every brand of chain is a little different, but the ten speed chains are definitely peened more heavily, have no pin protruding beyond the sideplate and have significantly thinner sideplates. This leaves little margin for error on reassembly.
I'm surprised that you don't understand that pushing a hardened steel, press-fit pin with an enlarged end through a thin sideplate can enlarge the hole. Try breaking a Wipperman chain sometime. The pins are peened so heavily that metal shavings dropped into my hand when I removed links to adjust the length. On this chain the damage was quite obvious.
I wish you luck as you continue to reassemble the campy chain without a connector link. I won't do it, because I recognize the danger. I just hate to see anyone constantly advise people (who may be less skilled)to do something that can be easily proven to be dangerous. As with all advice, people are free to take it or leave it.
Nov 6, 2002 6:17 AM
|By my measurements, the Campagnolo rivet has a rivet OD at the center of 3.60mm. The rivet ends do appear peened at 4 points, 90 degree apart. The peened portion of the rivet measures by my micrometer at 3.80mm. This allows a 0.1mm peening at the radius at the rivet end. When a rivet is moved through a side plate, this peening is removed. This is seen in the image below. A rivet (non-Campagnolo) with peening was removed and is shown on an optical comparitor. |
Other chain manufacturers range from as little as 0 peening to as much as 0.3mm at the radius. However, it is important to notice that the Campangolo chain (by my measurements) is 6.15mm wide at the rivet, but only 6mm wide at the side plate. The rivet effectively protrudes past the side plate 0.075mm, a very small amount. By contrast, a competitor's 9-speed chain is 6.81mm wide at the rivet, and 6.25mm at the side plate, so the protusion per side is 0.28mm. This simply shows that there is not much room for error with the 10-speed Campagnolo system in terms of centering the rivet, and in fact, Campagnolo chose a service system that does not reuse the rivet or side plate. In discussing this issue with a company representative, it was mentioned that they felt a "fresh" hole in the side plate was stronger.
Nov 6, 2002 10:24 AM
|You've got access to precision inspection equipment, I see. I've spent a lot of time on an optical comparator myself. Great for measuring small components.
As you've shown, something has to give when a pin is removed. Either the peened end of the pin and/or the sideplate hole will be affected, depending on which material has the greatest hardness. Once the peening is removed, the pin won't hold as originally designed.
It's not surprsing that you found the older protruding pin chain to have no peening at all. In this case, the manufacturer relies on a press fit to retain the pin.
|Pics and description not relevant to C10 chains||JohnG|
Nov 7, 2002 8:00 AM
|You guys are using non relevent HW to argue a point. Shame on you both. ;-)
BTW, I have access to similar inspection HW and I'll take some pics of an extracted C10 pin and also a before and after pic of an "assembled" C10 chain. I'm not sure why I care as I know the plates aren't "damaged". I've got Over 25K miles and dozens and dozens of C10 chain installations to "prove" the point. I also know of a pro shop that does their C10 chain installations this way. All you have are some unrelated observations.
Probably next week sometime before I post the pics. Too busy riding. ;)
|boy, you're stubborn...||C-40|
Nov 7, 2002 9:48 AM
|What's "non relevant HW"? If you mean my credentials, I merely wanted you to realize that I understand machining and metal forming processes. My profession is providing engineering solutions to manufacturing problems.
I appreciate that you've had good luck assembling the campy chain, but it doesn't mean that it's a advisable for everyone. I've also read reports on this forum from those who experienced immediate failures with this approach. If you look objectively at how the chain is assmebled and understand what's holding it together, it also becomes obvious why this failure is likely to occur.
The picture that Calvin posted is entirely relevant to this subject. It clearly shows that the peened material at the end of a pin is either sheered off or displaced as the pin is pushed through the press-fit hole in the sideplate.
I'll readily admit that most, perhaps all, of the damage done when a pin is removed may be to the pin rather than hole is the sideplate (depends on which one's harder). Either way, the pin that was pushed through the sideplate will no longer have the same resistance to movement once the peened material is displaced or removed. Peening is a one-time method of providing additional interference between the pin and the hole.
Just for kicks, I'll check out a Wipperman and see whether the metal shavings that come off when the pin is removed come from the pin or the sideplate.
As for taking pictures of an assembled chain, that won't prove a thing. Sure you can put it back together. No one would argue that.
|boy, you're stubborn...||JohnG|
Nov 7, 2002 1:43 PM
|You can't post a pic of another chain/pin and claim the same effects for the C10 chain. If you can't understand this simple concept then I give up.
|Rivet Peening- Campagnolo||Calvin|
Nov 7, 2002 3:21 PM
|This is a Campagnolo rivet on an optical comparitor. The undisturbed peened end is facing downward. The upper end was pushed through the chain side plate. The peening is showing on the bottom but appears to be sheared off the top. |
Please keep this thread an exchange of ideas.
|I was (partially) WRONG!!!!||C-40|
Nov 7, 2002 4:10 PM
|I hate it when I make a mistake, but when I do, I'm man enough to admit it. It appears that the damage done when a peened chain pin is removed is mainly to the peened end of the pin and not the hole in the sideplate.
I visually inspected a Campy 10 chain pin and a Wipperman 10 chain pin after removal. The peened material at the end of the Wipperman pin was oviously sheared off, leaving two small metal shavings behind. The sheared areas could be seen with the naked eye. A micrometer measurement verified that the end of the pin was no longer enlarged, like the other end. The Campy pin was also not enlarged at the end that had been pushed through the sideplate, but it will take a microscope to see if the metal was sheared off or merely displaced (not that it matters, the effect is the same).
The undamaged end of either of these pins is substantially larger in diameter (at the very end) due to the peening. With the peened material intact, it takes a substantial effort to push the enlarged end of the pin through the sideplate. Once the peened material is removed, the pin will push through much easier. If either of these chains is reassembled without a special connector link, one end of the pin will not have the extra resistance to failure, provided by the peening. Only the press-fit between the pin and the sideplate hole will be keeping the chain together. Whether it's worth it to take the risk is up to the user.
Both manufacturers strongly warn against reassembly without a special connector link. The reason seems obvious.
|What a high tech discussion.............||KurtVF|
Nov 8, 2002 3:20 PM
|You guys are too much! This is way too intellectual for me. I'll stick to my Superlink III and not worry about shearing and peening.|| |