|Which is better - Campagnolo or ShimaNO?||Iwannapodiumgirl|
Sep 4, 2002 10:58 PM
|Is this the first week in the history of cycling that this topic had not been posted on this board? I am sure you can guess my bias!|
|Just say no to Japagnolo!! (nm)||Spunout|
Sep 5, 2002 4:12 AM
|Ok ,since you mentioned it....||853|
Sep 5, 2002 9:19 AM
|I've been using Ultegra and am ready to up-grade. The natural choice would be Dura-Ace. Since I'm use to the way it shifts. Why should I go to Record other than the fact that it looks cool. Everybody at my LBS recommends Dura-Ace,
They say Shimano will replace my brocken parts and that Campy makes you buy replacement parts, then you have to pay to have them replaced. Second they said it is harder to down shift from the drops during a sprint.
Anyways I'm proabably just going to flip a coin.
|Ok ,since you mentioned it....||letsGoOn2|
Sep 5, 2002 10:10 AM
|Oh what the hey, I'll jump into this!
Your LBS probably has 10 Durachee grouppos on the shelf. The natural choice is Campy, either Record, Chorus, or Centaur.
1) Shimano stuff breaks. Campy wears out.
2) Campy really DOES look cooler!
3) You can go to just about any race with a 10 speed 11-23 cassette.
4) Shimano STI is made for women's hands. You've gotta be a real tough guy to shift an ergo lever.
5) Campy ergo hoods smell better than STI hoods.
6) Ergos feel solid when braking. STI feels ambiguous with the shift and brake controls on the same lever.
7) Ergo levers never rattle!
8) Those Italians make some really good wine.
9) The cockpit of a Campy machine is nice and tidy. STI leaves long lengths of cable flopping around in front of you.
10) STI downshifts one-cog-at-a-time. Sounds like a little toy pop gun going off in a sprint. Ergo shifters let you sweep the chain onto the 11 with one manly movement of the thumb. Sounds like an AK-47 going off on kill. Scares people.
In all seriousness though, if you're willing to spend money on Dura-Ace then I'd suggest at least giving a Campy system a try before plunking down your hard earned cash. Everyone has a different opinion, and for all you know you might just end up loving something that the folks at your LBS can't stand. If you're going to spend your own money, you're much better off having your own opinion. I myself switched from Dura-Ace to Record when my 8 month old Dura-Ace shifter jammed and Shimano would NOT replace it. I've been riding Campy for a year now and I will be for as long as I can ride a bike.
|Shimano would not replace it...||PsyDoc|
Sep 5, 2002 11:27 AM
|...weird. The finish on my Dura Ace shifter started to show a spider web effect after about 14 months. I called Nashbar and told them the problem. They said to ship it back to them and they would ship out two new ones, which they did no questions asked. I went through Nashbar, because they are one of the few places that carry the Dura Ace shifters without Flight Deck.|
|Shimano would not replace it...||letsGoOn2|
Sep 5, 2002 11:50 AM
|Glad to hear they kept you happy. I got mine at my LBS. Perhaps a difference in reps' attitudes? They sited "abuse" as the cause of failure and offered to sell me a right-hand lever only...|
Sep 5, 2002 1:23 PM
|Does Campy have trim control (just curious)...
I know this question is in very bad taste, but when is that last time a Campy equipped bike won the TDF?
Sep 5, 2002 7:59 PM
|I assume you mean on the front derailleur? If so, the answer is "yes". A left hand ergo shifter is really just a ratchet - all of the derailleur positions are equidistant from each other, so you could say that left hand ergo levers ONLY have trim control. It's really nice because this way the shifter positions don't need to exactly match the chainring spacing. That gives you total flexibility to use the same shifter for double or triple cranksets; you just use more of the available shifter positions with a triple. This is also why a Campy shifter is perfectly happy shifting on a Shimano crank, or any other crank that might come down the pike.
I agree with you that all of the differences between Campy and Shimano amount to little or nothing in competition. I'd be really surprised if anyone has ever won or lost a race because of the grouppo they're using. Pro teams are sponsored by manufacturers in exchange for displaying their components in races, so I dont think the number of races won on a particular grouppo is a useful data point when considering the technical merit of the grouppos.
If you ask me which is "better", the techie in me just has no choice but to say Campagnolo. The admittedly minor things like multi-cog downshifts, double/triple compatibility with the same shifter, upgradeability (8/9/10 speed), rebuildability, and materials are evidence that Campagnolo has put some serious thought and attention to detail into both the design and implementation of the stuff they're putting out there.
|Trim control||da cyclist|
Sep 8, 2002 6:52 PM
|1998 - And how many times has campy NOT been the winning group?
Answer: 5 times.
|Ok ,since you mentioned it....||bobobo|
Sep 8, 2002 8:00 PM
|Total bull-s-h-i-t. I have seen Shimano stuff break and likewise i have seen all kinds of Campy stuff including record stuff BREAK not wear out prematurely. Everything from 10 speed chains snapping with 20 miles on them to broken rrear derailleurs, cracked carbon seatposts, failed headsets, etc...
The truth is there is no obvious choice. Both makers make great stuff and their upper end stuff is excellent.
The argument that Campy stuff is rebuildable is a friggin joke. Take into account the greater initial outlay cost of a record 10 grouppo versus D/A, take into account the wild difference in cassette prices between the two, a part by the way that is GUARANTEED to wear out if you actually ride your bike instead of posting BS on the internut all day and come back in here and tell me over a 5 year period a record 10 drivetrain will be cheaper to buy and maintain versus a D/A one, hahaha! How about the Campy only chain tool, another $60 down the drain, oh its so much cheaper to operate, yeah right. Dream on! Campy makes great stuff like Shimano but you certainly are not going to save any money operating their drivetrain over time versus Shimano, that's pipe dream and if you don't know that please have someone wake you up from your stupor. The difference in cassette prices alone would buy you about two extra pairs of D/A shifters over 5 years of riding, and they are not going on average to break 3 time in 5 years, not even twice and for many not even once.
|Ok ,since you mentioned it....||letsGoOn2|
Sep 9, 2002 10:51 AM
|The question being asked is which grouppo is the "best". Not which is the cheapest, or which offers the best value. I never said that Campy was any cheaper to operate. The point I'm trying to make is that Campy designs their components to be repairable whereas Shimano expects their components will be replaced. This is significant to me as an engineer because I know that it's almost always much more difficult to build something that is serviceable and extendable. This does not imply that Campy grouppos are less expensive over the long haul. It does imply to me, however, that more thought when into their design and manufacturing processes.|
|Consider the Cost||grzy|
Sep 5, 2002 1:38 PM
|Consider the cost of not only the components, but also the tools. Since I play in the MTB world also Shimano makes much more sense to me. You are screwed when trying to get small parts from Shimano - as in there aren't any. Personal preference is for the Shimano style shifting, but to each his own. Get some time in on a Campy equiped bike to see if like the difference. I've got too much time with STI so Ergo shifting just doesn't work for me, but I could easily see how people could say the exact opposite thing.|
|No small parts available?||czardonic|
Sep 5, 2002 2:05 PM
|My LBS was able to order replacement small parts for Tiagra shifters. There are at least some replacement parts available.|
|I always exagerate!!!!!!!||grzy|
Sep 5, 2002 2:12 PM
|Yes there are *some* parts, but not enough to really be useful in any true sense. Just compare to Campy's offerings and you'll see what I mean. Or loose some little spring out of a shifter. Point is most of the parts can not be bought seperately and what you can buy is absurdly priced to the point where you can buy the entire component for not much more and have it a whole lot sooner. Shimano doesn't want to mess around with the nickel dime stuff. Try getting parts for something that is no longer current. In a practical sense there are *no* small parts for Shimano.|
Sep 6, 2002 9:35 AM
|I replaced two little plastic pieces that got sraped up in a crash. Only $20 for the pair! : Þ|
Sep 8, 2002 8:07 PM
|Yes absurdly priced is 100% correct. $170 for a ti/steel cassette guaranteed to wear out if you ride your bike, $250 for an all ti cassette also guaranteed to wear out if you ride your bike, $60 for a CampyOnly chaintool so they can make you spend another $60 on Campy stuff. The list goes on an on. How many guys who can actually afford a record 10 setup (most are yuppies0 actually have the time to rebuild a shifter)?? Yeah they sure are going to do that, NOT!! One in a hundred might.|
|$900 for the Carbon Record Crank!!!||grzy|
Sep 9, 2002 9:59 AM
|Yeah baby!! Spend $700 more than the Dura Ace unit and save youself 30 grams!! Of course their shifters are lighter so it really is a net savings. Pretty frickin' amazing when people start spending enoough money on one component that will buy almost the entire competitors group. This really is the arena of the absurd. How many people are going to rush out and get the ultimate poseur badge? They should include a Mercedes badge with the thing.|
|Re:No small parts available?||Mike Prince|
Sep 5, 2002 2:16 PM
|I think what grzy's talking about is that there are no small parts available to do a full rebuild (like you can on Campy shifters). Shifter caps, small screws, etc are available for Shimano via special order, but if you want to rebuild a shifter or derailleur it is pretty much impossible with Shimano while Campy at least makes components which are rebuildable and there is some level of parts availability.
Brings up another question. I wonder how many Campy users who tout the rebuildability of the product actually order small parts and do a rebuild instead of just ordering a new derailleur, shifter, etc. Any takers on this one? I can't answer because I have not used Campy in years, having STI on my bikes since the early 90's.
|Re:No small parts available?||Lactate Junkie|
Sep 13, 2002 1:27 PM
|Good point, how many crampandgoslow users ever rebuild anything--how many have the ability to do it right--damn few. Within 3 years there will be Record 12 and the whole bunch will be flocking with their Visa card to the LBS and trying to sell their Record 10 to their brother-in-law. You can pretty much get all the parts you want to rebuild Dura-Ace, as much as needed. Why would you want to rebuild the internals of a STI or Ergopower lever anyway--it is like rebuilding a Swiss watch!!! Geez, buy a new assembly and go for a ride!! NO--"I will spend 6hours f****** around with it at my dining room table only to find I don't know what I am doing and have to buy a new lever anyway"
If Campy is so brilliant, how come every "innovation" they have had in the last 10years has been a copy of something Shimano has already done? Indexing (which they said was a fad), Brake/Shifter combo, Slant parallelogram shifters(OK this was as Suntour idea but who's counting), dual-pivot brakes, pinned and ramped chainrings, even splined bottom brackets but they had to pull this back because of patent issues. I visited the Campy factory in Vincenza a few years ago. You know what they had in their R & D area--you got it--Dura-Ace--ya know--if you cant beat them--copy them. 30 years ago, there was a difference between Campy and Shimano in quality. Now--forget it.
Lastly, for those of you who state "Campy wears in and Shimano wears out". BULLS****, wearing-in means it don't work right in the first place. If I am spending that type of money I want it to work out of the box not at the end of its third season.
Pick one, put it on your bike, go for a ride and shut-up about it. The "best" is whichever one you have or the one you can get the best deal on.
|cost is a real issue||tarwheel|
Sep 6, 2002 4:49 AM
|I have Campy Chorus on one bike and Shimano Ultegra on another. I prefer the Chorus, but the cost of maintaining Campy equipment can be frustrating. The C-10 chain can be finicky and seems to wear out faster than Shimano 9 speed. A Campy steel cassette costs $80 at the discount stores -- more than the cost of a DuraAce cassette with some ti cogs -- and twice the cost of an Ultegra. Campy chains cost at least $33, or $10-15 more than Shimano. You get the picture. I suppose it's like that saying you hear about expensive cars, etc. -- If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it.|
Sep 6, 2002 9:58 AM
|Never forget the time I was sitting in a VP's office and he was complaining to me about how much brakes cost on his new luxo-boat Mercedes. It was really hard not to shoot back some sarcastic remark that my 10 year old POS car didn't have that problem, but that I could almost feel his pain.|
|UNIX! NT sucks! Oh wait, wrong board... -nm||SnowBlind|
Sep 5, 2002 12:21 PM
|Red Hat sucks just as bad, free bsd is much better!!!!||Jeff_from_boulder|
Sep 5, 2002 10:45 PM
|sorry, just couldn't resist|
|Friends do not sell friends Shimano...||Iwannapodiumgirl|
Sep 5, 2002 3:33 PM
|read that on a bumper sticker this morning. Thought it was worth a mention!|
|Friends do not sell friends Shimano...||schills|
Sep 5, 2002 4:39 PM
|I've never used Campy gear, but went through the same decision making process when I built up each of my bikes. It came down to availability. . . in a number of ways. I can buy anything Dura-Ace from any number of shops in my area. If I need something, I know they'll have it in stock. Not the same for Campy. If I'm in a neutral wheels supported crit or road race, I am certain that they will have a Shimano wheel. Not so sure on Campy, and in certain cases definetly no Campy(or maybe 9 but not 10 or 10 but not 9).
I don't like to think about gear while I ride or race and because I ride all over the country Shimano lets me sleep better before a race or big ride.
|No, its CampagNOlo||pmf1|
Sep 6, 2002 7:26 AM
|The choice of every poser on the planet.
Got an Italian car? Geez, I wonder why.
|No, it's not... it's ShimaNO...||Iwannapodiumgirl|
Sep 8, 2002 1:17 AM
|Only people that ride ShimaNO think people that ride Campagnolo are posers... I take it your bike is running ShimaNO - oh well, life is full of disappointment - get use to it! And besides, you are the weakest link... Good bye.|
|No, it's not... it's ShimaNO...||bobobo|
Sep 8, 2002 8:17 PM
|I don't think people running Campy are stupid. I think they tend to be yuppies on super expensive bikes who money typically is no object to. nothing wrong with this but anyone who thinks from a pure economics standpoint that a comparable Campy drivetrain is cheaper to operate than a comparable Shimano drivetrain, they are fooling themselves and have done no research whatsoever. True posers are those who think someone elses drivetrain is inferior simply because it doesn't cost as much or isn't the same brand. i do get a kick out of listening to the ShimaNO bashing "experts" though as they explain how campy is superior because of issues like rebuildability, etc. Never mind that you just blew $170 or $250 on your Record cassette. Never mind that your chainsets, chains and cassettes (all parts guaranteed to wear out) for a given grouppo all cost more than Shimano, never mind that the initial grouppo price itself for a given Campy grouppo costs far more than a comparable Shimano grouppo. But that darn rebuildable Campy shifter sure makes up for all the previous price differences, doesn't it????? :-)|
|No, it's not... it's ShimaNO...||da cyclist|
Sep 8, 2002 9:24 PM
|First of all, I don't know anybody who actually rides record cassettes. Second, a Campy group does NOT cost far more than a comparable Shimano group. Chorus=Dura-Ace. A chorus group is actually cheaper than a dura-ace group. I'm not saying that either brand is cheaper to run on your bike. But I do think that many people tend to compare one company's top product to another company's top product, which isn't always accurate.|
|No, it's not... it's ShimaNO...||bobobo|
Sep 9, 2002 3:39 AM
|WRONG!! Chorus is not Dura Ace's equivalent!! This is more Campy only BULLS-H-I-T! The upper end grouppos of both Campy and Shimano separate themselves from their subsequently lower end grouppos mainly as a result of weight issues, not functionality. Dura Ace actually weighs less than record unless you are talking about record either with one of those silly $200 cassettes or that riduculous carbon fiber $900 crank. The plain truth is Dura Ace is the equivalent of record and Ultegra is the equivalent of Chorus and so on for comparing Campy with Shimano and anyone who says differently has bought into the lies and totally baseless BS Campy only hype that D/A is equivalent to Chorus and ultegra is somehow equivalent to Centaur. D/A weighs almost a full half pound less than Chorus and since weight is the most predominant factor which separates these makers groups there is no way these two groups are comparable unless you have total blinders on or are listening to some Campyonly genius. Just because record has a few silly pieces of carbon in its grouppo does not mean D/A is not its equivalent for comparison purposes. Campagnolo themselves admit on their website the only significant difference between record and chorus 10 is the weight of the grouppos and some bits of carbon fiber. That being said, how do you possibly justify saying that Chorus is therefore comparable to D/A when there is such a big weight difference between the two grouppos??? YOU CAN'T, unless you are a totally illogical schlep! Using that moroninc logic, basically any guy in the tour de France running D/A would be running a grouppo of significantly lower level of performance versus anyone riding record because its really only Chorus's equivalent = TOTAL UNMITIGATED B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T!!|
Sep 9, 2002 5:41 AM
|Record is Chorus with a bit of carbon - other than that it's the same. What doesn't have carbon? Oh yeah, Dura-Ace...
I admire your totally ilogical obsession with weight comparison, but when you have finished comparing the weights of 9 ad 10 speed groups, talk to someone who actually rides the stuff, and be amazed that they aren't bothered by the difference between the weight of D-A and Record - they are concerned with the way it performs. Weight is certainly NOT the "the most predominant factor which separates these makers groups", rather, they way they function is.
And by the way - if you think that 105 performs as well as Daytona, you really do need to actually try riding them both for a while.
Just injecting some sanity into your rant..
Sep 13, 2002 3:49 PM
|That Campy shifting drives me nuts!! ;-b |
Oh, and those prices...... I think the best thing Campy has going for it is snob appeal. Less money spent on crap that doesn't matter means more money left for other things, unless you've got too much money. ;-)
In a big way Shimano has made Campy what it is today and vice versa. Otherwise they'd be sitting on their stagnant butts feeling all smug rather than trying to keep up with the latest innovation from Japan and not going out of business.
That we can even have this discussion is a good thing.
|Depends where you live||Eager Beagle|
Sep 18, 2002 12:37 AM
|I am in the UK and the price difference is not that huge here.
I have lived with both for years (still have a mixed stable now in fact) and on the back of that I strongly feel that the Campy is more durable (not that I have had my 10 for that long yet) - it certainly wins hands down for CX work - it's just plain more simply and better protected.
You are right about the competition angle though - it's a shame that there are really only 2 players.
|No, it's not... it's ShimaNO...||da cyclist|
Sep 9, 2002 9:44 AM
|Wow - a little defensive aren't we? You hit the nail on the head when you said the only differences b/w record and chorus are the carbon fiber and the weight (because of the carbon fiber). Functionally, chorus and record ARE NOT different. There are big differences b/w dura-ace and ultegra. Functionally, they ARE different. In my opinion, chorus does not equal ultegra for that simply reason. A lot of people, including myself, put record on a higher level than dura-ace simply because of the extra little details like carbon fiber.
Maybe you need to take a class in logic before throw around terms like "mornonic" lest you look like one. You drew some very illogical conclusions. For somebody who values weight above all else, then dura-ace is probably the best thing going. But most of us that have been riding for a while realize that weight, especially in a component group, isn't too important.
The bottom line is that there is really no performance difference b/w chorus, dura-ace, and record. Record is just finished out nicer than dura-ace and chorus. So if somebody is going to say that campy is more expensive simply becuase record is more expensive than dura-ace, then it needs to be noted that it's not quite such a straightforward comparison.
|OW OW! My eyes hurt! Use some formating for the love of Pete!||SnowBlind|
Sep 10, 2002 8:07 AM
|Plus, try reading this out loud. Good lung exercise trying breathe at the punctuation.
Extra bonus: try shouting it out loud, the way it was written.
|re: Which is better - Campagnolo or ShimaNO?||Spunout|
Sep 8, 2002 3:25 AM
|Funny how in the late '80s/early '90s that new Pinarellos and Colnagos were being equipped with Shimano STI stuff. That was a case of the frame sooo outclassing the components.
I started in this sport in the mid 80s, when any serious rider had Campy Super Record. Dura Ace made a bit of an impact, but never on an italian frame.
The feel and workmanship of both groups are so different, as well as the history and tradition of each company. If you are building a bike, you either see it as one side or the other.
Then again, there are so many Shimano equipped Colnagos in the peleton, wonder what is going on with that. Sponsorship dollars? Do you think a team welcomes Shimano with all the free parts, wheels, R&D support, plus a few E100,000? You bet. I think Campagnolo might supply components, but they don't have the budget to directly sponsor a lot of teams.
Does anyone know, if a Div1 team wants to use Campy, do they have to buy all of it? Like, 30 Record groups plus tools and parts? Yeesh.
Anyways, I use Campy because it rules. It is better, more solid, re-buildable, and traditional for a racing bike.
Sep 13, 2002 4:05 PM
|You taking about history or the fact that the new tradition is that Shimano is now tops in terms of race wins and market share? Used to be a time when Simplex and Huret was even more traditional, but that's before your time. |
You can broaden your view to the auto industry for example and realize that there was a time when Fiat cars were more common, better built, and more traditional in the USA than anything from Japan. You can look around now and realize that a current Honda blows any Fiat away which aren't even imported any longer. Realize a couple things - the Japanese are awesome and relentless competitors in the world of manufacturing. They aim for nothing short of perfection and market domination and they will win unless something is done. You can be a traditionalist if you want, but it's going to cost you.
Campy's world is shrinking. They aren't in the mass market and they aren't in MTBs. They only exist in the hold-out traditionalist roadie end of things and the price differential is becoming huge. My prediction is that before long they'll fail to exist as a company unless they're somehow subsidized either formally or informally by the European racing teams (if they aren't already). Like many things coming from Italy - Campy parts are a fashion statement.
Sep 18, 2002 8:15 AM
|, with respect. May be true for your in the states, but it ain't the case here in Euroland. There are masses of campy users around - go to any club meet/ride and you'll see it up there with ShimaNooooooooooo.
In any event, there are plenty of small volume frame manufactures here in Europe who have been going for years - there is no reason to suppose that Campy don't have more than enough market to keep going for the forseeable future and well beyond.
I wouldn't get too carried away with race wins - most people don't give a stuff who has more tour wins - most people don't ride those bikes, and don't buy D-A or Record anyway - it's irrelevant to them. In fact, most of the guys I ride with don't even follow pro racing that closely at all - they just have a passing interest. (Mind you, that's probably a British thing, seeing as we aren't exactly over-represented in the pro-pelleton - go Millar).
Sep 18, 2002 3:08 PM
|Do you really think that the rest of the world cares what goes on in Europe when it comes to selling bikes and making money? Point is that Urup is the only thing propping Campy up and without you guys they'd be gone. Like they almost were once before. Look no further than the auto industry if you want examples and proof as to what I'm talking about. Just b/c you still have Ferrari's, Morgans, Citroen's, Yugo's and Fiats in Europe doesn't mean it's a roaring success. I think that was my point.|
Sep 19, 2002 12:19 AM
|"Campy's world is shrinking. They aren't in the mass market and they aren't in MTBs. They only exist in the hold-out traditionalist roadie end of things and the price differential is becoming huge. My prediction is that before long they'll fail to exist as a company unless they're somehow subsidized either formally or informally by the European racing teams (if they aren't already). Like many things coming from Italy - Campy parts are a fashion statement."
Was your point.
Awfully quaint you Americans and your "Urup is the only thing propping Campy up" - but you really have to face the fact that there are rather a lot of us, and the entire cycling world really doesn't revolve around the US - us backwater Urpeans really can exist on our own without your wholehearted life-saveing endoresment of every product you know.
Sorry to spoil your rant, but there is independent life over here.
I'd love to hear more of your business analysis of Morgan, by the way...
Sep 19, 2002 2:38 PM
|We'll take your money anyways and save your ass when it needs it. ;-b |
BTW - I heard Morgan was coming out with some custom wooden cranks!
Sep 19, 2002 11:59 PM
|Mebbe we can help you out with a few target identification and acquisition systems in return :-)
Yes they are, but there is a 6 year waiting list for the hand-made turned maple ones, which are of different lenths and with threads are not compatible with AF, Whitworth or Metric, but you can get them on the used marked now for only 3 times the price of new ones.
FWIW, I am the chairman of the Morgan Crank Owner's Club - or "Mocock" as we like to call it...
|LOL - nm||MJ|
Sep 19, 2002 12:48 AM
|re: Which is better - Campagnolo or ShimaNO?||Lactate Junkie|
Sep 17, 2002 2:16 PM
|Outside of the cost of the product, I do not believe that either Shimano or Campy actually have to pay teams to ride their stuff. BTW--While not as big as Shimano, Campy is hardly a tiny concern. For Campy, the bike stuff is a labor of love and does not represent a huge contribution to the bottom line. They make most of their money in automotive (wheels, engine blocks and other alloy parts including stuff for Ferrari F1, motorcycle and aerospace.|
|It is agreed then.... Campagnolo is better than ShimaNO!||Iwannapodiumgirl|
Sep 10, 2002 3:17 AM
|Thanks for the interesting discussion.
Good to see that there are many angry young men and women out there!
But at least it is decided that 10sp Record is better than 9sp Dura Ace.
What a minute, I must compare apples with apples, and not pears... 10sp Chorus is better than 9sp Dura Ace, or should we really compare 9sp Veloce to 9sp Dura Ace?
I think the latter is most appropriate!
Sep 13, 2002 4:09 PM
|She had some nice pears! ;-0|| |