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Campy v Shimano(80 posts)

Campy v ShimanoGrassyAss
Aug 12, 2002 11:20 PM
I'm in the process of buying my first roadie and would like some input on what people prefer and why.

Choices have been narrowed down to
Record 10 v Dura Ace.

It used to be that the majority of the Tour de France riders rode on Campy, but nowadays it looks fairly split.

Is there much of a difference between performance and durability between the two?
Also for the Campy users, how do you find the shifters? I noticed that Campy shifteres have a litte thunb button rather than 2 levers. It would seem that this setup would restrict the hand positions in which you could shift.

Any other pluses and minuses for either group??

Cheers

TIA
re: Campy v ShimanoAndreas_Illesch
Aug 13, 2002 12:49 AM
reduce it to this question: which shifter fits better to your hands. it's shimano for me.
Not this again! ;o)Iwannapodiumgirl
Aug 13, 2002 1:29 AM
One of many articles written on the subject - hope it helps!

http://www.totalbike.com/articles/Campy-Shimano.html
great read...GrassyAss
Aug 13, 2002 3:59 AM
Thanks for the link.. it a great article..
From an unbiased (really!) Campag userlonefrontranger
Aug 13, 2002 11:56 AM
Throughout the course of a fifteen-year love of road bikes I've ridden Campagnolo, Shimano, and (gasp!) even some Suntour, Sachs and Huret stuff. In the end, it's just like the others said: you will end up liking whatever fits your hands the best.

My observations:

* PRO Shimano: Shimano stuff has much lighter shifting action, and the STI levers have a nice big, wide platform for riders with big hands. You are guaranteed to have compatible wheels in neutral support cars at any road race. If you break it out in the back @ss of beyond (in the U.S. anyway) you can find replacement parts easily in any bike shop, no matter how small or remote. You can often make do with MTB parts to get by until you can get back to your regular roadie shop.

* PRO Campy: Campy stuff lasts virtually forever and feels very solid once it breaks in. It's also easy to service and replace, direct under warranty from the mfgr in many cases. Do a search on Ebay for Campagnolo and see how many "NOS" parts show up - people keep this stuff and build with it / use it forever. There seems to be more care and craftsmanship in their finish. Campag doesn't fiddle around with plastic bits, nylon bushings, or cheapo stamped metal in Centaur and higher level groups, unlike Ultegra/105. Ergo shifters are fully servicable, so you can repair them if they break, or even buy a separate right-hand lever only straight from the dealer if that's all you need. Ergo is bulletproof in rain, mud and slop; it's the only thing I'll ever run on my 'cross bikes. 10-speed is really, really nice- no more compromising your 16 cog to get a 25 for climbing steep hills. I won't trot out all my cassette combos here (been there, done that), but let me tell you that extra gear does make a difference.

* ANTI Shimano: Planned obsolescence. When you break your Shimano stuff, it goes in the bin. Don't ever try opening up an STI lever; it's a jillion tiny pressfit springs and ratchets like a Swiss watch inside, all waiting to fly out into the pile of your carpet or under the fridge, never to be found again. This isn't a big deal for the casual roadie who buys new stuff every 2 years, but I race and put a lot of miles and abuse on my bikes. I went through quite a few rear mech return springs and several loose, rattling shifter shrouds with Shimano - it just seems to wear out a lot quicker than Campag. The shifting action is lighter and crisper at first, but then I find it gets vague and sloppy as soon as the springs wear out, which they do, and depressingly quickly. I also found the STI mechanisms are quite sensitive to grit in the ratchets. Assuming you flush out your STIs with some solvent after a rainy ride, it's no big deal. However I've finished a few 'cross races as a single-speeder (not by choice!) because my STI shifters locked up with spooge. I have small hands, and STI levers have caused me to lose the rear wheel and slide out because of inadvertent braking while trying to shift to the big ring at the crest of a hill on a slimy off-camber 'cross course. I just don't like having that outer lever as the shiftercare to have my outer lever move. Using the thumb lever to upshift is actually far more stable when I'm sprinting in the drops, because it doesn't create as much hand / wrist movement.

* ANTI Campag: The shifting action is *very* heavy and chunky at first, and some folks never get used to it. Record is also way overrated. I have 2 Record-equipped bikes, but I also get my stuff at cost. If I had to pay retail, you'd better believe they'd be Chorus, because there's not much to Record besides cachet. It's basically a couple of ti bolts and exposed carbon bits that will look like crap the first time you lay the bike down. Campag tends to be harder to find in the U.S.; so if you are road racing, you'd better bring your own spare wheels. If you break your stuff on a remote race or ride, you may be screwe
... continuedlonefrontranger
Aug 13, 2002 12:13 PM
If you break your stuff on a remote race or ride, you may be screwed. I don't find it hard to get compatible wheels, but that's because I use Shimano cassette bodies with Wheels Mfg. cassettes so that I don't have to deal with the angst of finding Campag compatible wheels.

Again, in the end, it all boils down to what you personally prefer. Both manufacturers make great components, and my 'cross bike even has an XTR front mech, because Campag doesn't do top-swing.

I'd personally be more inclined to compare Chorus straight against DA, and Centaur against Ultegra, because of the higher bearing and finish quality of the Campag stuff. If you look at it that way, and figure that modern Record is just cachet and cosmetics without much to recommend it besides a few grams weight savings, you'll probably get a better value out of it.
That's the most intelligent thing I've read about....KurtVF
Aug 13, 2002 1:21 PM
this "debate" in a long time.
Great analysis LFR! n.m.koala
Aug 13, 2002 6:09 PM
I thought you could stuff a Shimano wheel in a Campy setup tempkenyee
Aug 14, 2002 10:41 AM
Temporarily? I read of some folks that mentioned the errors weren't enough to keep it from shifting right, but you have to remember not to shift into the Campy 10th gear or the chain would pop off?

Great review.
not worth itlonefrontranger
Aug 14, 2002 1:40 PM
Naw, don't try it. You will have a couple of "useable" gears and a whole crapload of slop. I also don't think it's worth the danger of "trapping" the narrower 10sp chain between the chainrings, either, which I have seen happen (not pretty).

Back when I managed a juniors / women's team, we did a crit in Kentucky where almost everyone on the team (half with C-10, half with STI-9) flatted and had to take a free lap. While we got servicable use out of each others' wheels, it definitely was "emergency use only" and unacceptable on everyday terms.

Campy *9* speed, OTOH is compatible with Shimano. A good argument for sticking with 9sp if, say, you have a Shimano fan in the household.

What I was referring to was the fact that my SO and I have an entire stable of "boutique" wheels: Mavic, Zipp, Spinergy, etc... We decided right off the bat that kit wheels were easier to deal with and find if we stuck with using Shimano cassette bodies and Wheels 10-speed cassettes. If you've ever tried to find affordable (the key is AFFORDABLE - most of our really trendy wheelsets were bought at swap meets or on the Internet) Campag compatible boutique wheels, or struggled with switching out cassette bodies (lots of bearings to chase around the floor), you'd know why we do this.

Bonus: The Wheels cassettes come in far more combos than Campag offers.
re: Campy v ShimanoEricBH
Aug 13, 2002 3:51 AM
Your first roadie and your going to load it up with Record 10 or Dura Ace?
re: Campy v ShimanoGrassyAss
Aug 13, 2002 4:06 AM
Yeah I know what a lot of people are thinking... But I went through all this with my MTB.
I made compromises with my first purchase and then went through the whole upgrade thing, just to get what I wanted in the first place and in the end, I spent lots more than what I would have done if I had gone for exactly what I wanted initially and I wouldn't have a garage full of spares.
Turst me, it works out alot cheaper and painless if you go for the full deal to start with.

I'm actually considering the C'Dale 2003 Team. Why C'dale? cos' they have a great warranty program. And they visually appeal to me.
The big can of wormspmf1
Aug 13, 2002 4:12 AM
Are you opening it on purpose?

Both are excellent. Its all a matter of personal preference. Pro riders ride what they're paid to ride not what they prefer.

Try each and see what you prefer.

I have 3 bikes and they all have Dura Ace. Why? Because I started out using Shimano, have the tools, the wheels, the spare parts, etc. It would be too expensive for me to switch. I think there are more wheel choices with Shimano (as far as more companies making Shimano compatable wheels), but you certianly are not limited with Campy.
just a newbie asking a simple question...GrassyAss
Aug 13, 2002 4:25 AM
not trying to be controversial or anything like that. I've been MTBing for quite some time and I do believe that the better gear works/performs better. I have XTR just about everything on my MTBs, with the odd Racface, sachs here and there. I find that when I ride a bike that has the lower end grouppo, it's very irritating.
But since starting to do road rides, I've found that road grouppos are totally differnt to the MTB scene. i.e. Ultegra/Dura Ace is not analogous to XT/XTR. In addition to this, with MTBs, Shimano is the only real complete grouppo. Whereas with road gear, you have Campagnolo to at to the mix as well.
Personally, I think that road gear is way more confusing for a newbie than MTB.

After read the article from the link above, I'm leaning towards Campy. But this is not to say that I have made up my mind, as I feel there is still a lot of reading for me to do, and listening to those with more experience, such as those on this board.

Cheers
just a newbie asking a simple question...pmf1
Aug 13, 2002 4:56 AM
Cheers ... you must live in the UK. Here in the U.S., Campy Record is much more expensive than Dura Ace ($400). Probably not so big a difference there.

I sure couldn't afford DA/Record on my first road bike. Shimano Ultegra is the best deal out there on road bike components. No reason to buy 105. As far as Campy goes, everything in the Record line trickles down to the Chorus line sooner or later. Chorus is a much better value unless you really must have the very best.

I've always seen DA/Ultegra as being pretty analogous to XTR/XT.

At any rate, what is better has been debated ad nauseum on this board. Shimano vs. Campy, and Litespeed vs any ti bike really sets folks off. We often get "trolls" here who pretend to innocently ask these types of questions, but in reality just want to start a war.
just a newbie asking a simple question...GrassyAss
Aug 13, 2002 5:19 AM
Not from the UK, more like down under Australia. But I do do a fair bit of internet shopping from JensonUSA and a few other places and I have noticed that Campy is a bit on the pricey side compared to the rest of you cycling gear.

I've been told - so hearsey - that there isn't the same noticable performance difference between DA/Ultegra, so you just can't test ride and feel the difference like you can with XT/XTR. Apparently it's more like a question of durability. So I've been told.

Why I'm asking about Record vs DA is because I've narrowed my bike choices to 03' C'Dale R2000, R5000 or R6000 the R2000 is AUD$5000 RRP while the other two are AUD$8000 and $8500 respectively. I'm thinking of going all out and just getting the R6000 which has Record 10. in addition to this, I'm counting on being able to get a substantial discount via my gift of the gab :-)
just a newbie asking a simple question...pmf1
Aug 13, 2002 5:56 AM
The difference between Ultegra and DA used to be larger. The main gripe folks had with Ultegra was the shifters. They didn't work as well and had these annoying plastic caps on the end that came lose and rattled. I had a cyclo-cross bike with those shifters and they didn't work quite as well as the DA ones. My wife had them on one of her bikes and they rattled a bit. A couple of years ago, Shimano replaced the Ultegra shifters with something that looks an awful lot like the DA shifters. I have not tried them, but I bet they work better.

We've since replaced the Ultegra parts on my wife's bike.

The only real drawback with Dura Ace is the bottom bracket. I typically use an Ultegra one instead. A bit heavier, but a lot less tinkering.

I have not owned a Cannondale for a long time (11 years ago I bought a 3.0 frame), but many of them appear to be specing in-house parts these days. If you're paying for DA or Record and getting CODA cranks and hubs, I'd think twice about just going Ultegra instead.

How much is an AUD worth in USD? These prices look really high. I hear bikes, cars, computers, etc are really high down there.
New Cannondale -- very little in housefracisco
Aug 13, 2002 6:57 AM
The new Cannondale bikes in the R2000 and up range for '03 have very little Coda/Cannondale parts on them, unless you get the integrated hollowgram bottom bracket/cranks. They're spec'd out with 3TTT stem/bars, Ksyrium wheels, Ultegra/DA, Fizik saddles. They've done a good job spec'ing their new bikes. The fact that their top of the line frame (CAAD7) is available in both the integrated bottom bracket and a 'standard' bottom bracket is a good move.
just a newbie asking a simple question...GrassyAss
Aug 13, 2002 8:32 PM
The new C'Dales are speced with everything Record per se, except for the in house cranks which are SI. I rather like these because they are damn stiff and light.
Also they have the Ksyrium SCC SL which I think are pretty OK

at the moment AUD$1 = USD$0.54 so about half
just a newbie asking a simple question...pmf1
Aug 14, 2002 4:16 AM
Its just my preferences and not meaning to be a jerk, but why pay $4000+ (USD) for a Cannondale when there are so many other nicer bikes out there. A Cannondale frame is just an aluminium frame worth only about $700. For that kinda money you could have a nice ti or carbon bike. Hell, you can get a C-40 with Dura Ace for around $4000. I know (from experience) what I'd rather have.

Yeah, maybe the CAAD 7 is some marvel that is worth it, but so was the CAAD 5 a few years ago, and how much are those selling for these days? What about compared to a ti frame?

For a first bike purchase, it seems to me that you are really limiting your options.
I'm all ears pmf1...GrassyAss
Aug 14, 2002 3:36 PM
Like I said..I'm just a newbie. The Dale is what I've seen in the LBS and they appeal to me. But i'm not silly enough to limit myself to just Dales.
Please if you have ANY suggestion or advice, I would appreciate your input.

My main requirements are that it has to be light and stiff.. the lighter adn stiffer the better, but with out spending a zillion $$$.
I thought the Dale was a good balance between being light, stiff and yet still affordable.

Once again any advice would be muchly appreciated...
I'm all ears pmf1...pmf1
Aug 15, 2002 4:14 AM
Well, $1 USD = $2 AUD, then you're talking about spending $4000 - $4300 USD on a bike. That's a LOT of cash here in the U.S. For example, I bought a Litespeed Ultimate frame and Look fork on close-out for $1600. Add a Dura Ace kit ($850 sans hubs), Time pedals ($200), post, saddle ($150) bar stem ($150) and a set of Ksyrium wheels ($600) and there is a complete bike for $3550 that I wouldn't swap for a Cannondale. I did the same thing with a Colnago C-40. The frame was $2700 after shipping and taxes. The built bike costy me around $4300. There are some mailorder houses in the U.S. (e.g., Colorado Cyclist) selling the complete built bike for $4200. I'm sure they can ship things to Australia.

It seems in this day and age that if you want a certian bike, you're not limited to what your LBS carries. In your price range, you can have damn near anything on the planet. Why settle for vanilla?
I don't get it...GrassyAss
Aug 15, 2002 5:44 AM
Why is the C40 such a lusted after frame??
To an ignoramus like myself, it appears to be just CF tubing bonded to lugs. There isn't much technology that goes into that is there? And would that manufacturing process be proned to fatigue and failure in a relatively short time?
This is usually what happens to MTB parts that are bonded (glued) together.
If on the other hand it were a full carbon wrap monoque design, then that would be a totaly different story.

Please show me the light...
OKpmf1
Aug 15, 2002 6:43 AM
I never called you an ignoramus.

Many carbon bikes are lugged with aluminium lugs. The C-40 uses carbon lugs and can be made custom. Its actually a fairly advanced design (not that tig welding aluminium isn't). The tubes are not glued together, they're bonded under high heat and pressure. I agree that one-piece bikes are a good design too. I've had a Kestrel 200 Sci for many years and its held up well. The use of lugs, if done right, makes sense. It gives the manufacturer the ability to offer more sizes without having to use a new (costly) mold that the one-piece design requires.

I don't know about the failure rate of glued together mtn bike parts, but bonded carbon frames are not prone to falling apart. I hear lots more bad stories about aluminium frames.

I'm not putting down your choice of a Cannondale. If it makes you happy, definitely go for it. What you spend on a bike won't make you a better/faster rider. My impression is that you're someone just getting into road riding, you want a really nice bike, and are bowled over by the first thing you see. Most newbie's aren't in the position to plunk down so much cash on their first bike. I can guarantee you that after 1-2 years (if you're still riding) when you've spent more time riding and looking at equipment, you'll be lusting after something else. You could spend half of what you're planning to spend on a very decent bike, ride it for a while, and then buy the dream bike when you really know what you want. At this point, you obviously don't, otherwise you wouldn't be asking for advice from folks on this webpage.

There is nothing special about a C-40. Its just a bike. I only use it as an example because its widely considered to be a very expensive bike. And its in your price range which means so are a hell of a lot of other bikes.
I see...GrassyAss
Aug 15, 2002 1:14 PM
Oh no..... don't get me wrong, I appreciate all your comments. An never accused anyone of calling me an ignoramus.
I have enough humility to be able to accept my lack of knowledge in this area. And hence I really do appreciate your comments.
You are right. With the budget that I've set aside, there is a lot to choose from and it is all very overwhelming.
With MTBs there are different designs to suit particular riding styles and terrain. But with road stuff, the terrain is basically all the same but the selection available is almost as varied..

All very confusing. But with everyone's comments, I am definitely leaning towards the Dale. And I so hope you are wrong about me wanting another frame in a couple of years. Becaue if you're not and I do start lusting for another ride, I think I'll have a very short marriage :-)
I see...pmf1
Aug 16, 2002 4:08 AM
In two years, you'll be drooling over the CAAD 9.

Or a titanium bike.
you are thinking oflonefrontranger
Aug 15, 2002 7:52 AM
the old "screwed and glued" carbon / aluminum lugged bonding of ~10 years ago. I agree, some of that stuff sucked; with the understanding that I rode a Giant Cadex "screwed-and-glued" road frame for 7 years. The guy I sold it to is still riding it and it's over 10 years old.

You are also looking at the abuse handed to a CF frame from an MTBer's perspective. I would agree that CF is possibly a tad fragile for trail riding due to the all-too-real possibility of bouncing the thing off of trees / rocks / solid objects every ride. Unless you are a bike messenger or crazier than I am, you're not going to subject a road bike to those same stresses.

The newer heat bonding process used by Trek and other carbon frame manufacturers (to bond *carbon* lugs to carbon tubes) is far more durable and will not fatigue / separate like a glue bond can. Think of the resins in the corresponding joints as "welding" themselves together under the heat and pressure of bonding.

Colnago takes their C-40 process one step further with the B-stay. Unlike other manufacturers who use a simple "wishbone" rear stay (whether carbon or Al), Colnago actually uses a different B-stay that has been designed with the stanchions / brake bridge / upper stay to be proportionate to each size frame, rather than just making the mono-section of the wishbone longer for larger frames.
hmm....GrassyAss
Aug 15, 2002 1:19 PM
now you've really done it....
I will now be looking in to the C40 and the Dale :-)

Do you have first hand experience on how it rides? and any idea of what a fully built C40 with Record 10 and Ksyrium SLs weighs?
no firsthand with the C-40lonefrontranger
Aug 15, 2002 2:34 PM
Don't get the Colnago if you're lusting for the Cannondale; get what you really like. Beyond that, get something that fits correctly. The best bike in the world will do you no good if it doesn't fit. U.S. frames often tend to run a bit longer in the top tube than Euro bikes. Colnagos are notorious for being "under-square" or "short" in their geometry; as I am a small female with corresponding "female" proportions, this "short" fit works perfectly for me.

I think what you're hearing from other Americans on the board is our perception of Cannondales as a "vanilla" frame - not to say they aren't fabulous bikes. However, they are very common here and hence have a bit of a "Chevy Monte Carlo" connotation; serviceable and plenty fast but they just don't have the "mystique" (hype?), deserved or no, of the Italian imports.

That being said, I own 2 Colnagos: the Dream (top-end Al) and a Dream 'Cross (his cousin the 'cross bike). They handle better than anything I've ever ridden, but then most of the other stuff I've ridden was variations on the theme of crap. A friend and fellow racer has six Colnagos, including a 70's retro fixie and an '01 C-40. He loves and rides them all, and says the handling is identically sweet regardless of age and/or material. The only difference in his mind are the slight differences in frame material compliance and (of course) weight.

The Cannondale is based on a straight-up speedster's bike. If you are a sprinter / criterium type racer, it's probably the best bike for you. If you plan on multi-day touring, stage racing or long days in the saddle, something else might be more suitable.

Colnagos are built as "stage racers", meaning they are somewhat more relaxed in the geometry for all-day comfort in the saddle. This gives them more compliance and a plush silky ride, with plenty of stiffness in the rear for climbing. I have the Colnago straight blade forks on both road and 'cross bikes; coupled with that smooth geometry I'd have to say the ride borders on magical. I call it "telepathic".

As far as weight; I ride a 49cm frame, so my numbers will be low. My Dream with C-10, Speedplays and Zipp 303s is >16 lbs, and the C-40 frame is lighter. You can get an idea of the total weight for your build by using the Wrench Science links to "build" to your individual specs.

I prefer my Morgul Bismark custom 7005 Easton bike for crits (1 hour, short lap, tons of speed, many corners), because that is what it's designed for. The Morgul has steep, tight geometry that makes it ride and accelerate like a track bike, independent of the stiffness of the 7005 alloy. It also has a high BB, to keep my pedals from meeting the pavement. However it is also twitchy and a bit of a jackhammer on long rides, so for long rides, road races and multi-day events, I prefer the Dream. I'd compare the differences between frames to those between a little souped-up roadster car and a big powerful touring sedan - each shines in its own venue.
thanks lfr...nmGrassyAss
Aug 15, 2002 4:11 PM
Hey Grassypmf1
Aug 16, 2002 4:21 AM
I've got a C-40 (the current model). With DA, Mavic K's, Time pedals (heavy) it weighs in at 17 lbs. Ask Doug Sloan what his weighs. He's a guy who commonly posts on this board and is a serious weight weenie (as well as a nice guy). I seem to recall he got his down to under 15 lbs. The claimed frame weight is 1050 grams.

What lonefrontranger says is true although I don't find the top tube short at all. She's also right about what the bike is great for -- long rides. It is no noodle though. I find it very stiff in the BB and a good climber. If I really want to stomp, I ride my Litespeed Ultimate instead. That's more like a Cannondale in that its very stiff with aggressive geometry. Carbon bikes have a unique feel (I have 2) that some people like and others hate. If you get a chance, you should try one.

I guess I forget that Cannondales are more exotic oversaes than here where you see them all the time. Same with Colnagos here. Go to Italy and they're everywhere.

The important thing is to get a bike that fits you well, and makes you want to get out and ride.

Have a good weekend.
gotta agree on this oneJohnG
Aug 14, 2002 3:46 PM
Bought a Dale 5 frame last year and didn't like it at all. Too harsh for my 150# weight. This frame would probably be fine for a heavy rider or someone just using it for racing but it just wasn't for me.

I'd be interested in hear if the Dale 7 is any smoother. ????

JohnG
gotta agree on this onepmf1
Aug 15, 2002 4:16 AM
I'm sure the Dale 7 is so much smoother than the Dale 5. Of course the Dale 5 was so much smoother than the Dale 3 that was so much smoother than the 2.8. The Dale 9 will maybe almost ride like a steel bike.
I live in the US and get Record parts cheaper than DAJohnG
Aug 14, 2002 8:33 AM
It's VERY easy to get most Record parts cheaper than DA. From what I've seen the only parts that are more expensive in Record (as compared with DA) are the rear der and cassette.

FWIW: I've developed a good relationship with a domestic vendor who beats all net prices on Campy.

NO price break on Shimano parts though.

JohnG
ok. Name names :-)kenyee
Aug 14, 2002 10:59 AM
Who? Where? And can we buy stuff from him as well? ;-)
ok. Name names :-)JohnG
Aug 14, 2002 3:40 PM
I've been buying my Campy components from Scott Mosko at: velodepot@hotmail.com.

First found him on ebay about a year ago. I believe his ebay name is "velodepot". I've bought untold #'s of components since then. His prices are always at least as good as 'totals' or 'txcycling' and his shipping costs are less. Scott's a straight up guy.......... I just hope he doesn't get flooded with new business as I like the low key "I'll get it when I can" approach.

JohnG
re: Campy v Shimanonetso
Aug 13, 2002 4:34 AM
I have both! I have a Canny r4000si with DA, and a Canny Black Lightning with Campy 10. They both are excellent. If price matters, the DA group is cheaper and works IMO the same as Campy. Campy stuff is pretty!!!!
which one do you preferGrassyAss
Aug 13, 2002 5:21 AM
of the two, which ride do you prefer to be spinning on??
which one do you prefernetso
Aug 13, 2002 5:31 AM
I like the Shimano DA, however they are both excellent.
re: Campy v ShimanoGalibier
Aug 13, 2002 5:22 AM
You should try each shifter for yourself and see if you prefer one over the other. If you prefer one, get that group. If you don't prefer one, get Campagnolo and enjoy the two extra gears. Here's a link to what I consider to be the most unbiased report on the two groups: http://spectrum-cycles.com/64.htm.

By the way, I use Dura-Ace. It works flawlessly.
no (nm)ColnagoFE
Aug 13, 2002 6:19 AM
Also, think record vs. chorus if you like campyTomS
Aug 13, 2002 6:27 AM
Record and Chorus are supposed to be nearly identical in performance, but record gets you only slightly lighter weight and nicer finish for a lot more money. Mostly in the form of carbon - brake levers, cranks, derailleur parts, etc. It looks sweet, but might not be worth the extra money, that's why a lot of people go with chorus.

fwiw, I don't have more than a handfull of test rides with either, my bike has campy 9sp daytona (now centaur) and it's also very nice. I preferred the campy levers to shimano while shopping around, but that's a personal preference.
Also, think record vs. chorus if you like campyxcandrew
Aug 13, 2002 1:43 PM
I agree with you for the most part about Record and Chorus except that I would say the finish quality and performance are identical (other than a few grams mass) rather than nearly identical. Personally, I like the silver bits better than the carbon bits, though the 4 arm Record crank design looks nice (not lighter though).

My next bike will probably get Centaur 9. It's matches up pretty evenly and is a bit less expensive than Ultegra in the U.S.
unfortunately not really an option....GrassyAss
Aug 13, 2002 3:45 PM
The bikes that I'm looking at don't come with a chorus setup.

it's either go with a big compromise and save $$$ by going with an C'Dale 03' R2000 or go the whole hog and choose between the R5000si and R6000si (Team Replica).

I've been to the a few lbs and have found that the Dales look nicest IMO, so it's now a battle / decision between the Record 10 & DA

cheers
It is always an option...jtolleson
Aug 13, 2002 6:11 PM
at that price point, there is no need to "settle" for the gruppo that is on the production bike on the sales floor. I mean, fine if you desire DA (that's what I have) or Record, but if you really want Chorus (which will allow you to apply the $$ difference to wheels or frame) then make the choice accordingly.

You can check out the al racing frame options at the highly-regarded yet reasonably priced Sampson Sports. www.sampsonsports.com ... or even the Douglas frames at cc.
unfortunately I live in Australia...GrassyAss
Aug 13, 2002 9:03 PM
Unlike your retailers in the US, Australian retailers are very hesitant in changing anything. I once purchased a Schwinn Moab 1 AUD$2100.00 at the time. And I ask for some nice slicks to be put on instead of the knobbies, and it was such a hassle I told thwm not to worry about it.

Every LBS I've been to are like this to some extend, some will be a little more flexible, but none will be as flexible as you're propsing. :-(
what do you mean "unfortunately I live in Australia"?Iwannapodiumgirl
Aug 13, 2002 9:21 PM
you have options - buy the framekit separately, and the FULL Record kit for approx A$2,000. Then you can spec your wheels, bars etc - nothing wrong per se with Ksyrium, yet as you probably have noticed, every man and his dog are riding them!

Where about in Australia are you?
what do you mean "unfortunately I live in Australia"?GrassyAss
Aug 13, 2002 10:17 PM
Where would I buy a full record kit for AUD$2000?

I live in the Sydney area.. Parramatta

The CAAD 7 SI frameset is about $4700, wheels are $1600 and then I still have to buy the rest.

I figure the R6000si is $8500, and I can get at least 10% discount, but I'm hoping to pick it up for $7000-$7500
what do you mean "unfortunately I live in Australia"?Iwannapodiumgirl
Aug 13, 2002 11:00 PM
I live in Bondi!

2002 Record grouppo, less hubs and headset - $2200.
Mavic Ksyrium SSC SL - $1300.
The rest, I assume you mean bars, stem, post, saddle, pedlas, tyres - just let me know what you want.
DA and Chorus are pretty much the same price (nm)ColnagoFE
Aug 14, 2002 5:29 AM
unfortunately not really an option....divve
Aug 13, 2002 8:59 PM
You also have the option of the 03 CAAD7 R3000. It's full DA as well, with the only difference to the R5000 that it has DA cranks instead of the SI Hollowgrams. $800 USD less in Europe. Not sure what the price difference in Oz is.
re: Campy v ShimanoAndy M-S
Aug 13, 2002 6:51 AM
Three points to make in Campy's defense.

1. The thumb buttons take a little getting used-to, and a little breaking-in. When brand-new, those things are stiff, and shifting from the drops can be a little difficult. Once they're broken in, OTOH, they shift like a dream, and they're generally right there where you need 'em.

2. Campy shifters can be maintained. After several years of hard work, my Sachs (Campy) Ergo failed. Repairs involved two springs and a spring carrier (and a cable, of course) and installation for a total of US$33. You simply can't rebuild a failed STI shifter, and my sense is that the Shimano mechanism is considerably smaller and more lightly built, as well.

3. Cables under wrap. I just think that Campy-equipped bikes look cleaner.
You know you want the Campy, so get it (nm)DavidS
Aug 13, 2002 2:40 PM
re: The never ending debatejdj
Aug 13, 2002 4:14 PM
And it really does come down to personel preference. I have both and prefer Campy(ultegra and centaur). If I never rode either one prior and test rode show room bikes, I would probably pick shimano because of the smoother shifting when new. Several hundred miles later I would opt for the campy.
I have come to like the thumb buttons,and the ability to zip through gears with out worrying about the chain popping off. I also prefer the more solid feeling and the finish on the campy parts.
Shimano is still pretty good quality and I like it,I just like campy more. I guess my advice would be, if your going to spend the money to purchase a Cadd7 just go with your first choice and you'll be completely satisfied in the end.
Thanks everyone...GrassyAss
Aug 14, 2002 3:13 AM
thanks guys and gals for all your responses.. I'm stillnot 100% sure, but after reading all the responses, I'm leaning towards the Record 10 and hence the Dale R6000si Team Replica.

Cheers
re: Campy v Shimanolegs
Aug 14, 2002 7:31 AM
I have never met someone on Record 10 that wished they had Shimano.. but every week I run into someone on Shimano wanting Record...
I dont think the two are in the same league.. I think chorus and Shimano can be compared but I dont think there is an equivalent to Record... just the 'action' of the shifting alone is supreme.....
What Does LA Use?Merckx fan
Aug 14, 2002 1:25 PM
There is no longer any reason to debate this question or pretty much anything else in the world of cycling. The matter can be settled for all time by simply asking "What Does Lance Armstrong Use?" Lance is the best, he insists on using the best of everything. He uses Shimano, therefore Shimano is best. If Campagnolo were better than Shimano, Lance would use it. Don't try to trip me up by talking about sponsorships, Campagnolo would leap at the chance to sponsor Lance if he asked them to.
Who the **** careslonefrontranger
Aug 14, 2002 1:42 PM
The pros ride what they are *paid* to ride. USP had a Shimano sponsorship from the get-go.

For the few months he rode with Cofidis, he did ride Campag. For what it's worth.
Who the **** caresMerckx fan
Aug 14, 2002 2:08 PM
> The pros ride what they are *paid* to ride.
> USP had a Shimano sponsorship from the get-go.

They could get out of it if they wanted to.

> For the few months he rode with Cofidis,
> he did ride Campag. For what it's worth.

Not worth much. That was the past, Lance hadn't yet made himself into the champion he is today. Also, maybe Campy was as good as Shimano back then. Things change, maybe they will again someday. I thought we were talking about the present day.
You're killing me.......... LOL........... nmJohnG
Aug 14, 2002 3:48 PM
This is such a stupid response......KurtVF
Aug 14, 2002 1:52 PM
I'm not sure if it is serious or not.
I'm refering to the "What does LA use" post nmKurtVF
Aug 14, 2002 1:54 PM
NM
Sorry you feel that way ...Merckx fan
Aug 14, 2002 2:14 PM
I was only trying to help.
Change your nick....Iwannapodiumgirl
Aug 14, 2002 3:03 PM
To Armstrong fan!

Juts kidding ;o) - sponsorship in the world of cycling is everything! Why od you think Lance is not able to keep the Lightweight labels on his wheels... because they are not "official sponsor" of USPS.

Besides, Shimano has porbably locked in their teams for many years, and the escape clauses would be extraordinary!
But I'm not Lance Armstrong..GrassyAss
Aug 14, 2002 3:49 PM
If I were superman Lance Armstrong, I wouldn't care what gear I rode, because I'm fit and strong enough to compensate for the small differences between different equipment.

I on the other hand, I am but a mere mortal. My career is not in cycling and never will be. I just want some gear that can help compensate for my lack of super powers. I know nothing helps more than hard work and training, but that's not what I'm all about.
I admit I'm soft, but I'd like to get into road riding a little more and I don't want to spend AUD$4000 on a half decent Ultegra bike only to find that in 6 months time, I've spent AUD$6000 on upgrades.

Just to clarify.... This thread was not to determine which grouppo is actually better, but ore what people's opinions are and what they prefer and why..
The greatest thing about this board is...Iwannapodiumgirl
Aug 14, 2002 4:13 PM
you always get something more than you ask for!

Based on your most recent comments, get the Record. I did, because in a few months time I did not want to regret not getting the "best" grouppo as far as I was concerned.

Further, people will comment on your Record group. Not many people have commented on my riding buddy's Dura Ace grouppo.
yes it is shaping up this way...GrassyAss
Aug 14, 2002 4:27 PM
It's rather strange that you say this. I was speaking to my fiancee last night about it, and she said the same thing. I find it fascinating that from so few comments and replies, you seem to know me so well :-)

Thanks
After all, we're Aussies..Iwannapodiumgirl
Aug 14, 2002 4:38 PM
quite simple folk as you know - we call it as we see it!
What are you riding..GrassyAss
Aug 14, 2002 4:55 PM
at the moment? And which LBS do you go to? or do you work at a LBS?
At the moment...Iwannapodiumgirl
Aug 14, 2002 5:21 PM
a 2001 Bianchi XL EV2 Mercatone Uno replica, with Record 10sp groupset, ITM Millenium bars and stem and Pantani Celeste Flite saddle. I am using a pair of old wheels, as I am still undecided on whether to get Ksyrium SSC SL's or Campag Neucleons.

I go to Gilbert Cyclery in Bondi Beach for my repairs, maintenance and consumables. For other items, I usually get mailorder from overseas.

I am considering opening my own cycling component mailorder business, because as you know, LBS prices can be ridiculous!
What did Eddy use? nmmmquest
Aug 14, 2002 4:31 PM
re: Campy v Shimanoshaochieh
Aug 14, 2002 6:23 PM
I personally would have Campy parts if I could afford them. I have Campy Veloce on my first road bike. I am a proud owner of a Trek 5200 with Shimano Ultegra and I don't like it. The first day with it the chain came off the chain ring. The chain ate my Carbon frame for lunch. I hated it. I will get a Campy group soon as I have some money or sale the bike and get a new Campy made 5200.
GrassyAss - does it have to be a CAAD7?Iwannapodiumgirl
Aug 14, 2002 10:51 PM
If not, depending on size and colour, I may be able to get you a good deal on a CAAD5 frameset with Campag headset?
just as light as possible....GrassyAss
Aug 14, 2002 11:40 PM
I sort of thought that it would be nice if the ride could be as light as possible and the CAAD7si framset allows for that.
I like everything about the Record group except for the square taper BB. And the CAAD7si allows me to have a really nice Record 10 group while allowing me to use a splined BB and light as well.

I have the opportunity to buy a 2001 R5000si Team Replica for about AUD$6500. But I thought that if I were spending this much money anyway, why not get the latest and greatest.

Am I just being an idiot??
no - you are not an idiot...Iwannapodiumgirl
Aug 15, 2002 12:04 AM
some people spend their money on fast cars, faster women, drugs, alcohol - you get the idea.

If buying a C'dale CAAD7 is what you want to do, do it. The thrill of riding it, the comments you get etc can not be valued with a $ figure.

Besides, you really want this bike so if you get anything less you will always be wanting.

Stop looking for justification from us on this board because everyone will tell you to buy your dream bike already... except those people who only think a Colnago C-40 is a respectible dream bike - they will try to talk you round!!

When you get it, you will have to post pics. Also, if you are ever doing laps of Centennial Park, look out for me on a Bianchi XL EV2, or I may just randomly call out "GrassyAss" to anyone I see on a C'dale!
cheers...GrassyAss
Aug 15, 2002 12:45 AM
I will post pics when I finally get it - that's the least I can do in return to all the great responses, but I don't think it'll be for at least another month or so.

Do you browse these boards often?? If so I'll be sure to give you a holler and maybe we can hitch up for a ride :-)

At the moment the only road rides I'm doin are of the M2 from Crows Nest to Seven Hills on Sunday mornings. (I say Sunday mornings, but I've only done it about 6 times) So far so good, but a bit tough on my MTB since my mate are on roadies.

Thanks again...
Never go wantingcarver
Aug 15, 2002 1:16 PM
If you can afford it, never go wanting....because you'll always be thinking - shoulda woulda coulda. So gear up, get dialed in, and rock and roll.
I tend to trawl from time to timeIwannapodiumgirl
Aug 15, 2002 4:01 PM
to see what interesting comments, observations and thoughts people have, and to help out when and where I can. What can I say, I live to give! ;o)

ps buy the C'Dale already!
I think I will..GrassyAss
Aug 15, 2002 4:18 PM
end up with the Dale.. If only I weren't getting married in a few months, I would have placed the order already :-) did I just say that aloud?
Alas, every now and then something pops up that happens to be more important that riding ;-)
Although, having said that, my fiancee has money on the table saying that I'll order it before the wedding. She truly is the best. But I MUST SHOW SELF CONTROL :-)
DON"T THINK... DO! (nm)Iwannapodiumgirl
Aug 15, 2002 5:13 PM