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can dua-ace 9 groupo be cotrold by campy record 9 levers(18 posts)

can dua-ace 9 groupo be cotrold by campy record 9 leversthreshold
May 2, 2002 5:22 PM
Help! Would like to know if it is possible to use campy record 9 speed shifters to flip gears on my dua-ace groupo.It is aparent that the new 9 speed dura-ace shifters are not what the trusty 8 speed shifters were.At less than two years there is a wave of returns to cycle shops of none down shifting levers,it seems that something inside is less than adequate.What I have been told though is Campy is not only bullet proof,but totaly rebuildable if anything did go wrong.Any help would be greatly appreciated....threshold.
NOC-40
May 3, 2002 4:11 AM
The amount of cable pull on campy levers is not the same as shimano.

Check out how one shop manages to use campy 10 speed levers to operate a shimano 9 speed rear derailleur. This setup looks questionable to me.

http://www.hubbub.com/ergoleverswshim9.htm
So, let me get this straight,TJeanloz
May 3, 2002 4:57 AM
You've never tried to accomplish it, but you're sure enough to say that it won't work. A qualified shop mechanic has not only done it successfully, but put instructions up on the web of how to do it, and you still say no.

I've never tried it myself, so I'd have to say that it's the same answer as using a Shimano 9 cassette with a Campy 9 system- it works perfectly for some, and not for others, so you might as well try it.

I'm not willing to follow the Campagnolo/Shimano company line and just rule out the possibility that it will work. It might just work.
So, let me get this straight,tanman
May 3, 2002 6:19 AM
I've done it without a problem--check my post below.

It's marketing BS to the nth degree--the stuff is so compatible, it's not funny. In addition, if you want to go 10 speed, you can do that also by swapping the internal cam on the Ergo shifters (about $30--branfordbike.com) and getting either a Wheels Mfg. or American Classic/Shooks Design 10 speed cassette (betwen $80-120) and 10 spd chain. That is, if and when you decide you'd want 10 speeds.

Whether anyone actually needs 10 speeds is another question not for this thread, of course.
read before commenting....C-40
May 6, 2002 8:25 AM
My response details how one shop used 10 speed shifters to operate a 9 speed shimano derailleur. The altered cable mounting effectively lengthens the lever arm on the shimano derailleur, which is necessary because the campy shifter has a greater cable pull, per shift than shimano. The cable pull on 9 speed shifters would be even greater, so it should be obvious that it won't work the same.

If you seriously want do such conversions, it's guite simple to measure the cable pull of each type of shifter. I've measured the cable pull on a campy 10 shifter and found that amount of cable pulled per shift is not the same. The amount increases on the shifts for the larger cogs.

All you have to do to measure the cable pull is mount a piece of masking tape on the cable in the right chainstay area and use a machinist's scale to measure the distance from the cable stop to the edge of the tape. If this type of measurment is taken for both brands of shifter's it's easy to calculate a ratio between the two, if one exists.

As for using a shimano 9 cassette with a campy drivetrain, that's a no-brainer. The spacing is 4.32mm on shimano compared to 4.55mm on campy cassettes. The difference is 5% per shift which will accumulate to a minimum of 20% error after four shifts. The error could accumulate to 40% if the derailleur isn't exactly centered on the middle cog. If you want marginal shifting, this is the way to get it.
The problem with your response...TJeanloz
May 6, 2002 11:13 AM
I have a problem with your explaination. And it is this: you are telling somebody that it won't work based on a number of calculations that you have made. I agree that it probably shouldn't work. But I've never tried it, so I don't think it's fair to say that it's "obvious" that it won't work. You say that all I have to do is set up some masking tape and measure this and that; why don't I just try to rig the two together and see if it works? Wouldn't it be easier than taking the measurements? Of course, I could make it work, and you would tell me that your calculations prove that I did not make it work.

I know that no number of satisfied customers will convince you that a Shimano 9 cassette works BETTER with a Campy 9 drivetrain than the old ED cassettes did. You have the math on your side, and that must be right. I have no math, only people who are quite pleased with their bikes. And I'd rather have my customers be happy with their bikes than unhappy but 'right'.

Your argument is effectively the same one that says V-brakes won't work with road levers. It takes some tinkering, and some adaptation, but it will work; even though the pull is different. I would encourage you to get out of your laboratory and into a bike shop to actually try these things. It's only through experimentation, not analysis, that some things are learned.
the math is never wrong...C-40
May 6, 2002 1:59 PM
Engineers like me who design mechanical devices have to rely on precision measurments to insure that they will function properly.

For example, I don't have to "try it" to know that a 27.2mm seatpost won't fit in a 26.8mm seat tube. The same goes for trying shifters with the wrong cable pull or cassettes with the wrong spacing.

If the differences are small enough, mismatched components may work fine. Handlebars and stems are a good example. Although different brands have "nominal" diameters of 26.0 or 25.8mm they are close enough to be used interchangeably with the new generation of open-faced stems. This can be easily proved by simple geometrical analysis.

Here are the results of the measuremnts that I took from my campy 10 speed shifters:

CAMPY 10 SPEED REAR DERAILLEUR CABLE TRAVEL

I attached a piece of masking tape to my rear derailleur cable, exactly 2 inches in front of the cable stop, and measured the distance the cable traveled after each shift, using a machinist's scale, graduated in .010 inch increments. I found that the cable pull was not totally linear. The first five shifts (starting from the smallest cog) were quite consistent at .100 inch or 2.5mm per shift. The 6th & 7th shifts measured .120 inch or 3.0mm, and the 8th & 9th shifts measured .140 inch or 3.5mm. The total of all shifts moved the cable 1.02-inch.
Ummmm.....grzy
May 6, 2002 3:01 PM
Step back and ask yourself what is your point? I've been following this sub-thread and think you've lost track of the question. The guy wanted to know if he could use Campy levers to shift a Shimano deraileur. You said in theory no, while in reality people have expereince doing. the first rule of engineering: Theory gives way to practice.

As a mechanical engineer I find fault with the tangent presented. Your machinists scale measures in hundreths of an inch (0.01") and then you report the results in thousandths (0.001") is misleading and wrong. Further more between tension issues and paralax error of meausring things by eye you can't really claim much precision on an empricle basis. You'd need to take a series of measurements and work out the error and reprot the standard deviation. In the end you should ask yourself, doesn't this make sense given that a four bar linkage is being moved through and arc to control a linear spacing problem. So, given all this just what the hell is your point?
excuse me...C-40
May 7, 2002 8:36 AM
for including the superfluous zeros, all measurements should be limited to two decinmal points, it's an old machinists habit to report everything in thousandth's of an inch. As a mechanical engineer (21 years) and machinist (10 years). I'm well aware of the limitiations of this form of measurement. I could have tried to rig up a dial indicator, but it wasn't worth the effort, since I use all campy parts. I took the measurements in case someone was ambitious enough to take similar measurments on a shimano shifter. A comparison would immediately indicate the percentage difference between the two and whether they shared the non-linear travel characteristic.

The point is that frustrating experimentation can be avoided by measuring first. It's silly to mount mismatched componentry and then try to guess why it's not working properly.
Anxiously Awaitinggrzy
May 7, 2002 9:54 AM
I'm anxiously awaiting your full report on required cable input to achieve specified rear deraileur deflections. Until this happens your information is useless.

You missed the obvious - people are succesfully doing it and have experience. You're trying to bluster your way through something you have no knowledge of. Have you ever tried it? Nope. Do you know that it does or does not work? Nope. Has this in any way helped the person that posed the original question? Nope.

Shall we start comparing resumes to add credibilty to weak and flawed arguements? Nope.
original answer was completely accurate...C-40
May 7, 2002 3:33 PM
Read my first response (titled NO) and the article on the referenced website. All info is completely accurate, and substantiated by those that have tried it (not me).

The shop posting this info managed to get a 10 speed campy shifter (not a 9 speed) to operate a 9 speed shimano derailleur by misrouting the cable under the sharp corner of the cable clamp. I never claimed it wouldn't work, but it looks like a recipe for short cable life to me.

Be specific if you have a particular weak or flawed argument in mind. I don't see any arguments. I just believe that advance measurements can help avoid frustrating or futile experimentaion, or point the way to a clear answer to a problem. As a fellow engineer, I can't imagine arguing against problem-preventing measurement.

Using a shimano 9 cassette on an otherwise campy 9 drivetrain is a classic example. Sure it works, but not as intended. The derailleur positioning error is 5% per shift and accumulates to a minimum of 20% on the fourth shift from the center cog. Accelerated wear and mediocre shifting are likely.
Have fun putting a 700c tire on a 27" rim...(nm)TJeanloz
May 7, 2002 4:20 AM
He'll have even more fun measuring then writing about it.(nm)grzy
May 7, 2002 1:57 PM
You must use 10-sp Ergopower to control 9-sp ShimanosSGrouts
May 3, 2002 6:01 AM
i ve done it and it works smooth and without any problems.
The HubBUb site gives all the instructions.
Just watch out for this: the extra speed must be left after the bigger cog (the more teeth) and not the smaller one because it doesnt work.
It worked for me in ultegra and XT (shimano mtb 9-sp)
Good luck!! ;)
Yes--and you have a couple of optionstanman
May 3, 2002 6:10 AM
For best results, you would have to use a Campy RD with the Ergo shifters. There is even a website that says that you can use Campy Ergo with Shimano RD. See:

http://www.hubbub.com/ergoleverswshim9.htm

You can also check the newgroup rec.bicycles.tech at google.com to double-check all this info if you don't believe your good fortune.
Despite the alleged incompatibility, 9 speed Campy and Shimano are essentially interchangeable. I use Veloce 9 speed shifters, Veloce RD, Shimano Ultegra FD, Super Record crankset, and Dura Ace rear hubs (8 speed with 9 speed cogset or 8 speed cogset respaced to 9 speeds)--all without problems. If you do get a slight hicccup, turn the barrel adjuster 1/2 turn--that will usually resolve any skipping/noise.
A picture..SGrouts
May 3, 2002 6:13 AM
...to give you the XT example (Shimano MTB and road cog spacing is identical at 9-sp)
how about using daytona/chorus 9 shifters with ultegra 9?tarwheel
May 3, 2002 6:21 AM
I hate my ultegra shifters compared to the chorus ones on my other bike. If I picked up some Chorus or Daytona 9-speed shifters would they be compatible with Ultegra 9? Is this something your typical bikeshop could handle?
Use Campy RDtanman
May 3, 2002 6:46 AM
Since Ultegra is compatible with the rest of Shimano, including XT (as compared to pre '97 DA which had different cable pull), you would first need to change the shifter cam from 9 to 10 speeds, available from Branford Bike or Excelsports and then follow the hubbub webpage instructions.

Alternatively, use a Campy rear derailleur--this way, you won't need to replace the shifter cam and the whole thing should work very well stock.

I would go to a shop that has experience with Campy Ergo and knowledgeable mechanics, because it requires installation and tuning rather than simple assembly of a boxed bike. That being said, however, the stuff goes on straightforward. If the shop tells you that they can't do it--move on to one that is knowledgeable and able. It's like a car mechanic--there are good ones that you keep and others that you keep moving past.