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Ultegra -- Dura Ace STI question(34 posts)

Ultegra -- Dura Ace STI questionsgray8110
Apr 29, 2002 5:17 PM
I'm primarily interested in how the front shifter shifts. On the Ultegra setup that I currently have the shifter has some trim positions, but really only two positions. It shifts perfectly well and range of motion isn't an issue, but there are some gear combos where chain rub can't be avoided. I heard once that the upshift on the Dura Ace lever is more like a friction shifter than an indexed design like the Ultegra setup. Is this true??

Spence
re: Ultegra -- Dura Ace STIChen2
Apr 29, 2002 5:49 PM
With Ultegra the shifters used for the double and the triple are the same which IMHO is the only reason for having trim stops. With the Dura-Ace double it's either all the way to the left or all the way to the right, no need for trim stops. The Dura-Ace triple shifter is a different unit. If your chain line is correct you should be able to adjust a double so that there is no chain drag on the front derailleur except when completely cross-chained either small to small or big to big.
~Al
This is incorrest.Len J
Apr 30, 2002 4:19 AM
I have a D/A double and there are multiple trim positions on the front Der, And they are necessary as you begin to "cross-over" gearing due to the narrow width of the cage.

Len
I have two on the upper ringpmf1
Apr 30, 2002 4:46 AM
The manual says there are two settings. If its set up right, you should be able to shift it all the way over to the left when you shift from the small ring to the big ring. Once there, if you slightly tap the inside shifter, it'll move a little to the right. Hit it hard and you're back in the small ring. In the small ring, it is like a friction shifter.
Exactly. nmLen J
Apr 30, 2002 5:32 AM
I have two on the upper ringChen2
May 1, 2002 5:35 AM
Which manual are you referring to, please?
~Al
I have two on the upper ringpmf1
May 2, 2002 4:17 AM
The one that comes with your front derailer. Its the big paper fold out thing in 87 different languages.
ManualChen2
May 2, 2002 12:46 PM
Thanks, I don't think I ever received it. I looked at the Shimano web site and in the FAQ section they describe the trim function as in your post and list the code numbers for several shifters but not the Dura-Ace shifters.
~Al
Manualpmf1
May 3, 2002 4:42 AM
Every Shimano component comes with a little fold out manual at the bottom of the box. I'm suprised Shimano doesn't post them on its website. They're not always real helpful. I put a couple DA equipped bikes together last winter and saved a set. I'd bet your LBS throws them in the trash on a regular basis. They'd probably save you a set if you asked them nicely. The trim is described in the manual that comes with the front derailer. I find it to work pretty well at eliminating chain rub.
ManualChen2
May 3, 2002 1:51 PM
Thanks, I'll get one from my LBS. I can probably trim mine by bumping the levers, just never have had any chain rub.
~Al
NopeChen2
Apr 30, 2002 6:04 AM
I have a 1998 Dura-Ace double and it has no trim stops and I've never needed any and don't want any. The only combination with any chain rub is from the inside (small) ring to the small cog, and there is no need for that combination. It's a 9-speed cassette on a 56cm frame with short chain stays.
~Al
NopeTJeanloz
Apr 30, 2002 6:30 AM
You have incorrectly installed your 7700 shifter, which (should) have come with four positions, including two for 'trim'. This was always an advantage over the Ultegra shifter, which also has four positions, but is capable of accomadating three chainwheels with only one 'trim' position- leaving people with a double only one available trim position. If the shifter is set up incorrectly, you will not get any trim (or, if you don't want trim, set it up wrong intentionally).
NopeChen2
Apr 30, 2002 8:37 AM
You're saying there are four positions, Len says there are multiple positions, and I say there aren't any. Could it be that Shimano has made some changes through the years? BTW, my LBS owner built my bike for me back in '98, as I've said before, it has no trim stops and doesn't need any because the chain never rubs, so I'd say it IS set up correctly. And I surely don't want it chainged.
~Al
Nopegrzy
Apr 30, 2002 9:09 AM
Well, the fact of the matter is that there are two positions and two trim settings on the 1998 DA shifter. It is very common for people to set it up wrong - even owners of LBS - I often fix them for my friends after they come back from the LBS. The fact that you haven't set it up and studied it yourself should say something. It's a fairly subtle thing and many people miss it completely. You don't have to have it, but the system works better when setup as designed.
Ok, but why?Chen2
Apr 30, 2002 10:51 AM
Just when I thought I had things figured out I find out I don't. Why do you say my D-A is set up wrong? The chain never rubs, the derailler never needs trimming, and has no trim stops. How can that be wrong? How can it work any better? I'm surprised to learn that D-A doubles can have trim stops. I've learned something. But now I'm having a hard time understanding why you need trim stops on a double. The only reason I can think of is if the chain line is off. I'm not trying to argue I really want to learn.
~Al
The most important thing,TJeanloz
Apr 30, 2002 9:40 AM
This discussion highlights what is the most important thing is bicycle mechanics. How you have your system set up is not how it was designed to be set up. Some people would even say it were set up wrong. But you like it. And that is what is important. There are differences in how you can set things up, but it's important to remember that the person who has to ride it is the opinion that matters- not the Shimano engineer who designed a function that you (apparently) don't need.

But since it's been nine speeds, Dura-Ace has had trim.
another question........Rusty Coggs
Apr 30, 2002 4:54 PM
Did not the 8 speed DA shifter have trim? As I remember, the other Shimano 8 speed double shifters had trim,but the triple versions did not.Maybe you are right about the DA 8 speed not having it, as there seems to be a separate set of instructions for the DA levers. Curious though that ultegra would and DA would not.?
Mis-construed,TJeanloz
May 1, 2002 4:31 AM
I poorly worded my earlier statement. In the days of 8 speed Dura-Ace, I was too young to be allowed to breath on DA equipped bikes, so I don't know for sure whether they had trim. But I'm fairly certain that they did.
Thanks.............nmRusty Coggs
May 1, 2002 5:20 AM
nm
According to ShimanoChen2
May 2, 2002 1:58 PM
At the European web site under road racing FAQ there is a statment that Dura-Ace shifters cannot be used on triples because they have only 2 positions unlike the other shifters which have 4 positions. In my original post that is exactly what I meant when I said Dura-Ace has no trim "positions".
http://www.shimano-europe.com/cycling/index.phtml
Clearly this information was offered before the new Dura-Ace triple was introduced.
At the Shimano U.S. web site there is a statment that explains the type of trimming pmf described in his post and lists code numbers for shifters with this capability but the Dura-Ace shifters aren't listed.
I really don't mean to say that I'm right and you're wrong, but I'm beginning to feel like I'm not crazy after all. The Shimano info seems to agree with what I know about my shifters. Other D-A's may be different.
~Al
Cluelessgrzy
May 2, 2002 3:39 PM
First, realize that two positions means be able to use two chain rings. Adding two more trim set points doesn't equal four positions. The Ultegra shifter actual has three positions to support the tripple but only two of them have trim points. This isn't exactly what you said or mena in you post - in fact you still haven't figured it out and are only confusing yourself. The DA triple shifter has three positions, each with its own trim setting for a total of six. Many people don't realize that the trim settings are even there.

Now, since you were so kind to provide the link to the Urup side what about one that lists the code numbers for shifters that can trim. Been there many times and haven't seen what you're describing.

At the end of the day the whole thing is fairly simple if you disconnnect your shift cable and play around with the shifter by itself while holding onto the cable. this gets you away from the whole problem that the mechanism is setup in correctly and having the limt screws override things.

Hey, there's always the possibility that you got a set of shifters that are unique and different from everyone else's in North America.
CluelessChen2
May 3, 2002 6:21 AM
There may be some confusion on my part but it's no more than your own. The Ultegra shifters have 4 positions not 3. On the Ultegra shifters the center two are normally used for trimming the triple. The Dura-Ace triple really has nothing to do with this thread. I simply brought it up because the Shimano European FAQ answer says that Dura-Ace does not support a triple, that's because that FAQ answer was writtne in 2000, before the triple was introduced. In my original post I was trying to point out the difference between the Dura-Ace shifters and the other groups. As Shimano says, Dura-Ace (double) shifters have only two positions.
As for the FAQ answer regarding trimming capabilities, as I said above, this is at the U.S. site and here is the URL: http://bike.shimano.com/services/faq.asp. For whatever reason, Shimano does not list the Dura-Ace shifters as having trim. I'm not saying it can't be done, I've never tried it because I don't need it.
Mr. grzy, I've learned from several of your posts in the past, I appreciate that, but I think sometimes you are a little quick with you criticism and sometimes I am too. And I don't think either of us accept criticism well. I know I hate to be wrong. I will play around with my shifters and see what they can do.
~Al
"Positions"TJeanloz
May 3, 2002 7:21 AM
I suppose in this thread we've let ourselves be a little lax in what a "position" is, we should have been more specific in regards to "shifting" and "trim" positions. Dura-Ace 9 has 4 total "positions" two are for gears, two are for trim. Ultegra also has 4 total "positions"; three are for gears, one is for trim. Dura-Ace doubles can't be used on a triple because the trim positions aren't exactly the same as the gear positions.

But rest assured, you have two trim positions, and two gear positions.
"Positions"Chen2
May 3, 2002 7:45 AM
Well now I've got to dissagree with you. I do have plenty of experience with the Ultegra triple, unfortunatly. It has four "gear positions" as you put it. The two on the ends and then the two on either side of the middle ring which are just alike. one can be used to handle the left side on the cassette and the other can handle the right side of the cassette.
~Al
Wronggrzy
May 3, 2002 8:36 AM
All Ultegra 9 sp STI shifters support 3 chainrings and have trim positions for the small and middle chainring for a total of 5 "positions". If you have it setup any other way then it's not as intended. Many people confuse this and have their shifting messed up. I straighten these things out all the time for people.
"Positions"TJeanloz
May 3, 2002 8:49 AM
I really don't want to argue about this, suffice to say that I have a fair amount of experience in the matter. But when I said "gear" positions, I meant independent front positions that could control a front chainring. So, you are now claiming that you could shift 4 rings with an Ultegra shifter? No, you can shift three with trim. Or with Dura-Ace, you can shift two with more trim adjustment.

As I have pointed out earlier, I'm really happy that you're pleased with how your bike is set up. Good for you for finding out what you prefer. But the trim is there for those who prefer it that way.
"Positions"Chen2
May 3, 2002 8:36 AM
With all of these "positions" this thread is beginning to sound more like Kama Sutra than RBR.
Here is the statment at the Shimano European web site that I referred to, notice that it was written in April 2000 when Dura-Ace was strictly double. It is a response to an FAQ about converting from doubles to triples. This is a copy and paste:

Dura Ace ?
That's a problem, simply because there are no Dura Ace "triple" components. Left Hand Dura Ace STI levers can only work with double crank sets (just 2 positions, 1 click). Of course it's possible to mix Dura Ace with some Ultegra or 105 components:

At least this Shimano rep agrees with me on the number of "positions".
Let's get on to something else. Don't tell me I need to go ride, I already know that and will tomorrow.
~Al
Reality Checkgrzy
May 3, 2002 8:38 AM
You could clear this up very quickly if you yanked a shifter and played around with it a bit and get the facts straight. In the end you should never debate a fact.
re: Ultegra -- Dura Ace STI questioncurlybike
Apr 29, 2002 8:29 PM
On some bikes there would be chain rub in the front without a front der. on the bike. In that case, the rub is the chain on the little ring rubbing the inside of the big ring. This occurs when the chain is on the smaller cogs in the rear. This usually indicates a chain line problem and is usually more prevalent on bikes with very short chain stays. Frequently the simplest fix is placing a small spacer behind the drive side cup. Your problem and results may vary.
re: Ultegra -- Dura Ace STI questionMrCrud
Apr 29, 2002 9:41 PM
On opposing cogs, the chain is almost supposed to rub because Shimano doesnt intent you to use these combinations. Besides, even though you got 18spd from the 2 up front and the 9 at back, there are a bunch of redundant gears, so you shouldnt even be in these opposed gears at all....

Just my 2 cents

Mr.Crud
re: Ultegra -- Dura Ace STI questionDKF
Apr 30, 2002 4:00 AM
The chain rub you refer to is normal. Those are not usable gears and there is no way to trim or change a chainline to make them work. Even the Shimano (or Campy) gear charts will show that you cannot use some gears. Primarily, big/big, small/small.
re: Ultegra -- Dura Ace STI questiongray8110
Apr 30, 2002 9:48 AM
The chain rub isn't an issue in crossover gears because I don't use them. The rub is usually an issue in a gear like 53-11. I'm not buying new shifters yet, but I'm trying to determine if there is a real world advantage to going with Dura Ace when I need new shifters. If the new shifters have multipe trim positions or are more like a friction shifter that would be fantastic because I could tune out the chainrub. I've seen the dura ace shifters reviewed positively relative to Ultegra shifters on multiple occasions, but I've never really understood the thinking there.
re: Ultegra -- Dura Ace STI questioncurlybike
Apr 30, 2002 11:10 AM
If the rub is in the 53-11 than the stops on the F. Der. need adjusting or the FD is slightly mounted wrong.
re: Ultegra -- Dura Ace STI questionJuanmoretime
May 3, 2002 7:39 AM
I don't know how many postions my shifters have, 2001 Dura Ace double Flightdeck compatable, but I can definitely trim the front derailuer on either chain ring. So I gues there are at least four positions.