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Ultegra w/aluminum fork vs. Veloce/105 w/carbon fork(21 posts)

Ultegra w/aluminum fork vs. Veloce/105 w/carbon forkBrianRo
Mar 6, 2002 6:38 PM
Trying to decide without much experience. With my budget I can afford a Pinarello frame with either Ultegra components but an aluminum fork OR Veloce/105 components with a carbon fork. Any thoughts on the better setup?
re: Ultegra w/aluminum fork vs. Veloce/105 w/carbon forkweiwentg
Mar 6, 2002 6:47 PM
which frame(s) is that/are those? probably you should go for the better frame ...
re: Ultegra w/aluminum fork vs. Veloce/105 w/carbon forkBrianRo
Mar 6, 2002 6:54 PM
Same frame on both setups - Surprise. The only difference would be the components and fork.
can you have an aftermarket fork with the same pinarello rake?colker
Mar 7, 2002 9:25 AM
just make sure you get that covered. the surprise is a nice bike! i wouldn't mind about the veloce and get the pinarello fork. then, after some time, you can upgrade... deals can be found and you can have it with personal choice of ring size, cassette ratio, rims etc..
upgrading is a lot of fun.
re: Ultegra w/aluminum fork vs. Veloce/105 w/carbon forkgonzo77
Mar 6, 2002 7:08 PM
Save up a little more and get the Ultegra with the carbon fork, ít's worth the wait.
Dittojtolleson
Mar 6, 2002 7:26 PM
What's the price difference ... $150? Al forks really suck, and you'll really want the carbon. That being said, you also really want the Ultegra, and it's durability will save you $$ in the long run.

Can you find a way to just stand up and scream "I WANT IT ALL!"
That how I got in this messBrianRo
Mar 6, 2002 7:45 PM
I'm already way over budget by giving in to your understandable mantra. Between me and my credit card, my card is screaming louder right now. Thanks though.
I wouldn't worry about it too muchgtx
Mar 6, 2002 8:44 PM
the main thing is the frame. If you got that right, you should be set. Parts is parts. I don't think there's all that much difference between 105 and Ultegra--it's mostly finish type stuff. Durability should be pretty close (though I'm not sure if they improved the 105 brake shifters this year like they did the Ultegra). That said I'd still say go Ultegra, especially if the Ultegra kit comes with better wheels--rims, spokes, etc. It'll be easy to upgrade the fork later if you want--a Reynolds Ouzo comp (very nice fork) is about $240. The AL fork should be fine if it is right rake, etc. I think carbon forks are way overhyped, anyway. If you really need a fork for shock absorption, your bike probably doesn't fit right or your position is screwed up. I've always found my stiff steel forks plenty comfy. Have fun with the new bike!
Thanks for the good adviceBrianRo
Mar 6, 2002 9:28 PM
I'm the victim of too many options and an obsessive personality. I've only thought about this and nothing else for the last twelve hours or so. I'm taking a valium and going to bed.
I wouldn't worry about it too muchweiwentg
Mar 7, 2002 6:34 AM
they did not, as far as I know, upgrade the 105 shifters.
personally ... I'd get the Ultegra equipped bike now and save up for a carbon fork.
durability???Spirito di Finocchio
Mar 7, 2002 4:19 AM
ill bet my ass that the veloce components are at least as durable as ultegra if not more.

ive had both and have run both for a long time so i feel in a position to be qualified in stating so.

ultegra is lighter especially at the hubs which is a different issue. but if this is an issue it can be easily resloved by upgrading to a lighter hubbed set of wheels further down the track. one thing that will unlikely happen is for them to develop problems as is probable in ultegra. i can also say that i had more than a few ultegra components that seemed to pack up and go home after a season of use.

just ask for a show of hands from ultegra owners on issues that they have had with their shifters alone, and im sure that less than half of them would have had that same issue resloved under warranty. i went thru two sets of levers (one of them the supposedly sorted out updated and improved 6510) and gave up after a season. when my veloce levers give up on shifting i can overhaul them and finding the parts isnt a goose chase nor is frowned upon.

the veloce stuff to this day after 3 seasons use surprises me by its resilience and function especially as most people who do all their calculations based on price and catalogue browsing are the ones who think it inferior just by price alone. 3 high mile seasons and ive had to replace the chain twice, a casette and a set of shifter cables. cycling manufacturers, marketers and "general consensus" have done a good job on you.

or are we all meant to be sheep bleating the same note.

i know which groupset saved me $$$ in the long run and i question if you have actually owned and ridden a veloce group to qualify your statement - i doubt it.

i ask what do you gain by offering to piss in another cyclists pocket with claims that are nonsensical and unfounded and will surely result in their buying something due to a claim you have made with no expereince.

a better group comparison is centaur/daytona to ultegra but please dont think for a minute that ultegra reliability is better than veloce - not even for a minute.

my only advice to newcommers is to buy the shifter that fits their hand best - and then ask around for reliability and maintenance issues. if you want all that and light then youll need bucks.

oh, and id rather a name alu fork than a no name carbon fork anyday. the quality of a manufacturer and their understanding and experiance with materials can sometimes prove better than just going for the most "accepted" material.
durability??? More like crazy cost of Campy replacement partsbobobo
Mar 7, 2002 11:24 AM
How about also asking for a show of hands as to the relative replacement costs of Campy chains , cassettes and chainrings versus Shimano, especially in the upper level groups. Afterall, these are the parts you'll be spending the bulk of your money replacing if you put in any type of miles at all, not repairing shift levers like many CampyOnly knuckleheads would have people believe.

The Campy costs for replacement of parts due to regular wear and tear, especially their higher end groups, on chains, cassettes and chainrings is so much higher than Shimanos that you'd have to be an almost flat out liar or completely clueless to even try to tell people they'll spend less money maintainng an upper end Campy drivetrain versus a comparable Shimano one. This of course does not apply to the lower end groups which are more closely priced as far as replacement parts.

Campy Record 10 cassette = $150-$260, Dura Ace = $69
Campy Chorus 10 cassette = $80, Ultegra = $39
Campy 10 speed chain = $33, Shimano 9 speed = $19
Campy Ergo Brake Cables = $35, LOL
I won't bother pricing the chainring cost of replacement, you should get the picture by now.

If you figure you replace your chain and cassette once a year which lots of guys do who are riding big miles, over a 5 year period it will cost you almost $500 more just to change your friggin Record 10 cassette and chain versus Dura Ace, but Record is cheaper to own in the long run?????? Yeah right, keep dreaming air blowers, total and compete unmitigated loads of crap.

Ditto for Chorus versus Ultegra although the price difference isn't as great. It's only $200 plus dollars plus the greater initial cost outlay as well.

Campy fellows would have you believe the main cost of maintaining a drive train over time involves the advantage of being able to rebuild a shifter??? Get friggin real. Comparable Campy components are much more expensive than comparable Shimano components at the initial outset and they remain much higher over the life of your drivetrain due to the extraordinarily high cost of their replacement parts. This is especially true at the upper end of the product range and no, Chorus is not the equivalent of Dura Ace meatheads, that's just more CampyOnly BS propaganda.

These idiots would have you believe that you can't compare D/A to Record 10 because Record 10 uses some silly carbon shift levers and a rear derailleur carbon parallelogram. Yeah, thos two little pieces of carbon sure make them completely uncomparable, huh? What does the carbon give you, some weight savings? Even Campy themselves admit they put carbon in the shifters and rear derailleur because it lowered their weight. I'll say it again, Even Campy themselves admit they put carbon in the shifters and rear derailleur because it lowered their weight. Well guess what each groupset weighs excluding hubs (because most guys running these groups are using prebuilt wheels, not Record hubs or D/A hubs built up wheels).

Dura Ace weighs 2,391 grams and Record 10 weighs 2,337. However, that 2,337 for Record 10 only occurs if you buy the insanely expensive MK-2 all titanium cassette for $260, or 156 grams. If you go with the just semi insane part ti MK-2 cassette (192 grams)then the Record 10 group excluding hubs weighs 2,373 grams, a whopping 18 grams lighter than Dura Ace!

On one hand the Campy fellows admit they use carbon in Record 10 to shave weight, then they turn around and say you can't compare Record 10 to Dura Ace because D/A has no carbon, BUT IT WEIGHS ESSENTIALLY THE SAME!!! HELLO, DOES ANYONE THINK SOMETHING FUNNY IS GOING ON HERE?

Talk about marketing BS. you admit you use carbon in your product to save weight, differentiate your product from a competitors because it uses carbon, but then refuse to say two groups which essentially weigh exactly the same are non comparable because the other has no carbon in it?????? I just wondering who is stupid enough to actually buy into this load of horse manure? I'm through ranting. :-)
good rantgtx
Mar 7, 2002 11:59 AM
I'd still compare Chorus to DA in terms of price and quality. I think most people don't compare DA to Record simply because Record is so expensive. It would be like comparing a Serotta Legend ti to a Ottrott IT. Is the Ottrot "better"? No. Is it a tad lighter and a hell of a lot more expensive? Yes.
veloce cassette = $30, sram pc89r, 8200mi on cables so far NMSpirito di Finocchio
Mar 7, 2002 12:54 PM
veloce cassette = $30, sram pc89r, 8200mi on cables so far NMbobobo
Mar 7, 2002 1:22 PM
As far as the lower end Shimano groups are concerned Spirito we can agree to disagree. I ran Shimano 600 (Ultegra's predecessor for 8 years) and never had to replace a thing but a few cassettes, chains and cables. I know national level riders who train almost exclusively on 105 because of its great durability/cost benefits. Bombproof and can take a beating in any type of weather conditions and these guys are riding massive amounts of miles. Ultegra is better than 105.

Your experiance is that Ultgera isn't durable or dependable, my excperiences with 105, Ultegra and 600 are just the opposite. It's extremely dependable stuff if you take proper care of it.

Some people rag on Ultegra because of the loose screw problem among other things, which by the way Shimano has corrected. However, the stuff shifts very smoothly, doesn't just fall apart like hypesters would have people believe and good old Campy has had more than their share of lame performers as well like cracking carbon rear derailleurs, breaking 10 speed chains, etc..

Veloce is as good or better than Ultegra? Not in my book it isn't, not even close! I'd call it more on par with 105 which in my view isn't a slight because I think 105 is damn good stuff. But that's the beauty of this forum, everyone has an opinion, myself included.
can you argue a little more focused..Spirito di Finocchio
Mar 7, 2002 4:17 PM
i couldnt give two hoots about campy 10 speed as i havent owned it so i cant comment and also as i only commented to an above mention that claimed ultegra was more durable than veloce. in my experience it is not and that is what i clarified and argued against.

and again whether veloce is better than ultegra - i argue that my veloce stuff has far outran the ultegra group that preceded it. the ultegra stuff worked well after a few false starts and then for nowhere near long enough for my money - and yes i am tight and hate spending on stuff when i dont need it.

in my opinion shimano 600 and ultegra are not the same group so not really qualified. and most of my rag on shimano ultegra has been shimano's refusal to back their warranty claims - they didnt even reply to 4 seperate issues i had with their stuff.

my riding partner 105 is brilliant so far but i do question why he has replaced 3 shimano chains in the time that i have replaced 1 sram chains. as we both clean and lube after each ride. ive never had a campy chain and never will as i dont see what the money is for. but he has replaced his cassette whilst the campy loose cog cassette i have hardly looks worn. i will not dare to look for any other cassette as each of my cogs is seperate and can be swapped out if worn and i also tailor my own cassette ratio's as i please not as is bonded together in blocks of two or three. my cogs are 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 23, 25, 26, 28. and i can pretty much arrange them as i like and specifically for the ride i need. i swap them around all the time and have only replaced the 16 and 17 tooth. i had mentioned changing a cassette earlier but it was easier to say that than go into my loose cog fascination like i have now done.

i only wanted 9 speed as most support wheels in the races in my area are still 9 speed and luckily the shimano wheels which they usually have work pretty well with my campy shift pattern. i am happy with 16 usable gears. my rear derailleur can easily take a 28 tooth cog. my chainrings are still fine.

and i will still say that apart from the hubs being heavy i cannot find fault with my cheapass groupset that has served me perfectly and better than the preceding current ultegra which i was for a time running at the same time as the veloce - so i can offer a fair comparison.

my lbs who sold me both groupsets have maintained both groupsets as well and their experiance has been mine. they are also honest to their customers and have backed my ultegra warranty when shimano wouldn't. after it got beyond a joke they gave me a at cost deal on the veloce group and with the miles i have logged so far i would buy it again full price without thinking.

and bobobo if you feel like ranting start a new thread as your idea of arguement is bringing a whole range of outside topics as constructive fact - i am just arguing what issues have been raised > ultegra/veloce/durability.

ultegra for me wasn't just rattling levers.
my first set wore out after 1500 miles. new set (6510) no rattles but still ghost shifted and decided when it wanted to shift after three different bikes stores all tried to remedy them.

the crankset was a forgotten set that should have been recalled as they intially made the splines on the bottom bracket 2.1mm in width then changed it to 2.2mm in width. bottom line - crank arms were torn where the larger splines tried to seat in the smaller grooves and if you doubt this i am happy to send you a 0 mile left crank arm that i still have nothing to do with as shimano couldnt care less. and shimano kept this issue very quiet let me tell you.

hubs failed after 1130 miles (4 weeks) as the set wasnt packed and tightened properly from the factory. upon inspection there was no grease and bearings had completely worn. why should i have to repack and grease a new hubset. the only wheelset i have built in 22 years that has failed due to components rather than accident or extended wear. i dont ride my wheelsets in the rain. i take my fixed gear out for that

i ran a sram chain with the ultegra as i do now with the veloce. on average i take the chain off and clean it religiously once a week as well as the cogs and chainrings. oft used cogs on ultegra wore super fast and replacing is dictated by the clusters that they come in rather than singly. my veloce cogs have worn three times longer under the same conditions.

ultegra brake pads wear out faster than my deodorant and im european blooded. the brakes work well enough but i know i am not the only one question what compounds they use.

ultegra chainrings ready for replacement after one season, three seasons with the veloce and im now thinking they are soon due for replacement. and if i feel that the rings are expensive ill buy a new crank for the cost of $60 odd dollars.

which brings me to the bottom bracket. ultegra = creakiest piece of $hit i have ever seen. i dont even know about my bottom bracket that came with the veloce set as it still spins as the day it was fitted and thats three high mile seasons.

and i cant say what the cost of ergo cables is as thats what came with my veloce groupset but all ive replaced is the derailleur cables and that was probably with generic cables - cant remember, but the housing and brake cables are still fine.

if i had to change i wouldnt know what to as i dont need more than 9 speeds and have grown to like the campy shifters. as veloce is still around i would probably go the same but i would think a 9 speed daytona group would offer me a similar experience and the daytona hubs i already have as a race wheel set and they costs just $110 and from reports are only 21 grams heavier than record but happen to be lighter than dura-ace. by comparison my veloce hubs are heavy but in comparison the ultegra are not what i would call a race set (198/332). i have a shamal wheelset that sits around gathering dust such is my fondness for the "cheaper" campy hubs.

my veloce derailleur look like it will last another three seasons and my front is a daytona and has yet to fail me.

i still ride a campy equipped bike that i have ridden for 16 years and whilst i dont log as many miles on it and i dont spare it when i do ride it. campy longevity is not a myth in my experience and i have only tried the cheap stuff that everyone snubs their noses at.

and so you know i have a dura-ace headset and am bvery happy with it. prior to my ultegra 6500 group i had run the dura-ace 7400 series group. i was the first of few to ride shimano sante and my first shimano group was dura-ace ax. and i will only ever use dura-ace freewheels with my old campy bike such is my faith for them.

veloce is durable, ultegra isnt - my experience wont let me forget. and the ass end of the campy cataloque needs to be considered more in my opinion that the top end campy and shimano for $$$'s Vs miles.
durability??? More like crazy cost of Campy replacement partsbobobo
Mar 7, 2002 1:03 PM
How about also asking for a show of hands as to the relative replacement costs of Campy chains , cassettes and chainrings versus Shimano, especially in the upper level groups. Afterall, these are the parts you'll be spending the bulk of your money replacing if you put in any type of miles at all, not repairing shift levers like many CampyOnly knuckleheads would have people believe.

The Campy costs for replacement of parts due to regular wear and tear, especially their higher end groups, on chains, cassettes and chainrings is so much higher than Shimanos that you'd have to be an almost flat out liar or completely clueless to even try to tell people they'll spend less money maintainng an upper end Campy drivetrain versus a comparable Shimano one. This of course does not apply to the lower end groups which are more closely priced as far as replacement parts.

Campy Record 10 cassette = $150-$260, Dura Ace = $69
Campy Chorus 10 cassette = $80, Ultegra = $39
Campy 10 speed chain = $33, Shimano 9 speed = $19
Campy Ergo Brake Cables = $35, LOL
I won't bother pricing the chainring cost of replacement, you should get the picture by now.

If you figure you replace your chain and cassette once a year which lots of guys do who are riding big miles, over a 5 year period it will cost you almost $500 more just to change your friggin Record 10 cassette and chain versus Dura Ace, but Record is cheaper to own in the long run?????? Yeah right, keep dreaming air blowers, total and compete unmitigated loads of crap.

Ditto for Chorus versus Ultegra although the price difference isn't as great. It's only $200 plus dollars plus the greater initial cost outlay as well.

Campy fellows would have you believe the main cost of maintaining a drive train over time involves the advantage of being able to rebuild a shifter??? Get friggin real. Comparable Campy components are much more expensive than comparable Shimano components at the initial outset and they remain much higher over the life of your drivetrain due to the extraordinarily high cost of their replacement parts. This is especially true at the upper end of the product range and no, Chorus is not the equivalent of Dura Ace meatheads, that's just more CampyOnly BS propaganda.

These idiots would have you believe that you can't compare D/A to Record 10 because Record 10 uses some silly carbon shift levers and a rear derailleur carbon parallelogram. Yeah, thos two little pieces of carbon sure make them completely uncomparable, huh? What does the carbon give you, some weight savings? Even Campy themselves admit they put carbon in the shifters and rear derailleur because it lowered their weight. I'll say it again, Even Campy themselves admit they put carbon in the shifters and rear derailleur because it lowered their weight. Well guess what each groupset weighs excluding hubs (because most guys running these groups are using prebuilt wheels, not Record hubs or D/A hubs built up wheels).

Dura Ace weighs 2,391 grams and Record 10 weighs 2,337. However, that 2,337 for Record 10 only occurs if you buy the insanely expensive MK-2 all titanium cassette for $260, or 156 grams. If you go with the just semi insane part ti MK-2 cassette (192 grams)then the Record 10 group excluding hubs weighs 2,373 grams, a whopping 18 grams lighter than Dura Ace!

On one hand the Campy fellows admit they use carbon in Record 10 to shave weight, then they turn around and say you can't compare Record 10 to Dura Ace because D/A has no carbon, BUT IT WEIGHS ESSENTIALLY THE SAME!!! HELLO, DOES ANYONE THINK SOMETHING FUNNY IS GOING ON HERE?

Talk about marketing BS. you admit you use carbon in your product to save weight, differentiate your product from a competitors because it uses carbon, but then refuse to say two groups which essentially weigh exactly the same are non comparable because the other has no carbon in it?????? I just wondering who is stupid enough to actually buy into this load of horse manure? I'm through ranting. :-)
re: Ultegra w/aluminum fork vs. Veloce/105 w/carbon forkDrD
Mar 7, 2002 5:17 AM
Who makes the forks? There are plenty of good aluminum forks out there, but a cheap one can be pretty bad. Same can be said about carbon forks - don't get sucked into the "it's carbon, so it must be better" mindset! If it's a quality fork (Look, Reynolds, Kestrel, etc.) then it might be the way to go.

I would place frame/fork/wheels over the other components - get the best you can - shifters are next - get the best you can - the rest of the stuff doesn't matter as much (well, obviously it's important, but at the 105 level and above, everything works well)

The Shimano/Campy thing is a personal choice - ride both, and get what suits you best - personally, I hate the little thumb lever, so I went with DA shifters, but that's me - other people are different.

I'd recommend getting the Ultegra/Aluminum fork bike, then watch for sales on good carbon forks, and add one later (if you decide you don't like the way the aluminum rides)
So how often do you shift?Spoke Wrench
Mar 7, 2002 6:09 AM
The carbon fork will benefit you every single minute you are on the bike. Just make sure you get the size right.
what pinarello?colker
Mar 7, 2002 9:19 AM
angliru?
what pinarello?BrianRo
Mar 7, 2002 12:09 PM
Surprise.