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Campy ergo 9 levers + Shimano 9 cassette compatibility.????(14 posts)

Campy ergo 9 levers + Shimano 9 cassette compatibility.????CT1
Jan 5, 2002 2:47 PM
Does anyone know the cog spacing for both Campy and Shimano 9 speed cassettes???

I'm trying to find out if I can use Campy Ergo 9 shifters + rear derailleur and a wheel with a Shimano 9 cassette.

Thanks
JohnG
re: Campy ergo 9 levers + Shimano 9 cassette compatibility.????Chen2
Jan 5, 2002 4:06 PM
It may work, sort-of, but it's best to buy a Campy spaced Shimano cassette from Wheels Manufacturing or other similar shops. Check at www.branfordbike.com
-Al
re: Campy ergo 9 levers + Shimano 9 cassette compatibility.????egallant
Jan 5, 2002 6:55 PM
I've used campy 9sp ergo with a Shimano 9sp wheel (RevX)and cassette for several years and have not had any problems. I believe the spacing is different between campy and shimano, but the difference is miniscule. You probably would get a smoother shift if you stay with a Campy freewheel body and cassette, but like I said I've never had any problems. Good luck!
re: Campy ergo 9 levers + Shimano 9 cassette compatibility.????egallant
Jan 5, 2002 6:57 PM
Oh, and one more thing, make sure you use a Shimano chain, preferably a DuraAce. That's actually very important!
re: Campy ergo 9 levers + Shimano 9 cassette compatibility.????CT1
Jan 5, 2002 7:24 PM
Do you know the actual cog spacing??? I'm being a tiny bit anal, but I could mod the spacers to match the exact Campy spacing. I've built custom Campy cassettes by doing this same thing.

I'd also VERY-VERY much like to NOT use the "adapter" cassette as previously mentioned. I'd prefer to stick with stock Shimano cassettes because then I'd have a BIG variety to choose from AND their relatively cheap and readily available.

Oh, this is for a tandem setup which uses a 145mm rear hub. These tandem hubs are only available (at least as far as I know) with the Shimano cassette "spline". However...... I want to use Campy Ergo shifters and derailleurs as I can't stand the shape and feel of the Shimano levers.

Thanks again
JohnG
re: Campy ergo 9 levers + Shimano 9 cassette compatibility.????egallant
Jan 5, 2002 7:57 PM
Sorry, I don't know the exact spacing between the cogs. I tried to get that very same information when I was investigating this issue from a tech suppport person at one of the big mail order companies, but he couldn't help me. As a result, I just started running the Campy/Shimano combo anyway and it worked.

I don't remember if you said that you already have Shimano wheels, but maybe upgrading to 10sp is an option for you. I think Campy makes an upgrade kit available at either Colorado Cyclist or ExcelSports, which includes a rear derailleur, shifters, chain, and maybe a crankset. With the 10 speeds you have an extra cog to work with and I also think Campy has a cassette that goes up to 29 teeth, which might be something you would like to have on your tandem.

Also, if you can't find a Campy freehub tandem body, possibly Phil Wood makes hub that might work. He seems to produce all sorts of hub combos.

Good luck!
re: Campy ergo 9 levers + Shimano 9 cassette compatibility.????CT1
Jan 5, 2002 8:08 PM
Phil Wood doesn't make Campy tandem hubs. :-( Besides, his rear tandem hub is $450 ... ouch!

I was told by a tandem frame builder to not use the C10 drivetrain with a tandem. I didn't get the details but I suspect the narrower C10 chain might not be capable of the loads from a tandem. ????

On the other hand, I would probably guess a C10 drivetrain is OK as you tend to not do crazy sprinting on tandems. The C10 system would also need the "adapter cassette" approach which is not something I'd prefer to do.

I suspect my best choice would be standard XT and Ultegra 9 speed cassettes.

Thanks again
JohnG
ok this is the real deal...secourir
Jan 6, 2002 1:13 AM
shimano 9 speed spacing is 2.8mm

campy 9 speed spacing is 2.56mm

its doesn't look like much but depending on how you set up you rear derailleur it might work or it might be glitchy. ive heard of no problems and ive heard of people who just couldn't get it running right. chainline, offset, spacing all are slightly different for each bike.

i have run the wheels 9 speed cassette with campy levers and derailleurs and it worked well for me about 95%. as the last few cogs are joined and not to campy spacing it makes it a little skippy sometimes. in all i cant say i was enamoured with the price of $100 for a respaced ultegra cassette. i was asking myself what the extra $$$'s went into as they called it remanufacturing but i call it re-assembling.

if you are worried about variations on cassettes and gearing i would use the daytona/veloce 9 speed loose cog cassettes (still some at colorado cycles = $30) and buy a few extra spare cogs. then you can make all the variables you wish.

if you dilemma is due to the extra hub oppurtunities offered with shimano pattern cassettes then find a shimano 9 speed that is loose cog and buy campy spacers. i haven't done this but i dont see why it wouldn't work well. and it works out a lot cheaper as well.

this is from branford bike.

Campagnolo 9 Speed Loose Cog Cassette Spacers:

* All Campagnolo 9 speed loose cog cassettes use the same amber resin spacers.
* The width of each spacer is 2.8 mm.
* Cassettes that start with an 11 tooth cog require 6 spacers. Cassettes that start with a 12, 13 or larger cog require 7 spacers.

* The spacers are identical and may be arranged in any order.
* Made in Italy by Campagnolo and backed with a three year warranty.

Part # Description Suggested Retail Our Price USD$ You Save $
FW-98-20 Campagnolo 9 Speed Amber Spacers $3.00 $1.88 $1.12

pretty cheap huh?

unless those bastards at campy and shimano have buggered with the diameter of their spacers so that they wont fit on each others cassette bodies then i would just assemble some myself from super-large washers and charge people a nominal amount and put a few exorbitantly priced re-manufacturers out of business.

7 x .14 = 0.98 this is the total cumulative amount of the discrepancy of all the 7 spacers between shimano and campy. that is less than 1mm over the range of a 9 speed cassette. its cheapest by far to go with a shimano cassette and set the derailleur from the centre and hopefully get it right. if not then using the sightly thicker spacers will work it all out. make sure you have enough space between the last cog and the driveside spokes for the chain and your set. if it all bolts together and the lockring holds it tight spread the word and raise the integrity of cycling and componentry a little higher than its current downward trend.

oh, by the way a sachs pc-89r chain is all you will need. i cant be bothered with chaintools and they work well with either of the exorbitant two. but if you have to choose then match the manufacturer of the cassette with their chain.

hope ive been of some use with all my rambling.
coolamundo!CT1
Jan 6, 2002 5:40 AM
Bingo: shimano 9 speed spacing is 2.8mm campy 9 speed spacing is 2.56mm

My going in position would be to carefully machine down the Shimano spacers so that they are close to 2.56mm. That's only 9 'mil' so that should be quite easy. I did this when I respaced a Campy cassette so I KNOW it's an easy mod. I also doubt that the Campy/Shimano spacers have the same inside diameter.

FWIW: I HAVE to use a Shimano type hub.... VERY unfortunate, but that's life in the Tandem business.

Thanks ALL
JohnG
BACKWARDS!!!C-40
Jan 6, 2002 7:38 AM
Shimano spacers are thinner than campy's. You need thicker spacers, not thinner! The shimano cassette body is also not long enough to accept 8 spacers with campy spacing. That's why the use of a special cassette, like the accelerator from excell sports is the better option.
oops .... small errorsecourir
Jan 6, 2002 8:54 AM
from the branford site which is more detailed than excel (which is where i bought my wheels manu cassette)

an excerpt from branford's page:

Campagnolo 9 Speed MK 2 Cassette Spacers:

* Campagnolo uses the designation MK 2 for any cassette that has cogs riveted together as clusters. Non MK 2 cassettes are simply cassettes that have only individual cogs separated by single spacers.
* All Campagnolo 9 speed MK 2 cassettes use the same amber resin spacers as Campagnolo's loose cog 9 speed cassettes.
* The width of each amber spacer is 2.8 mm.
* 9 Speed MK 2 cassettes also use a single, thicker spacer to separate the largest two, cog clusters.
* Cassettes that start with an 11 tooth cog require a single 6.3 mm alloy spacer to separate the cog clusters. They also use two, 2.8 mm amber resin spacers to separate the 3rd, 4th and 5th position cogs.
For reference, the first position cog is always the smallest diameter cog.
* Cassettes that start with a 12 or 13 tooth cog use a 10.8 mm alloy spacer to separate the cog clusters. They also use three, 2.8 mm amber resin spacers to separate the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th position cogs.
* Made in Italy by Campagnolo and backed with a three year warranty.

Part # Description Suggested Retail Our Price USD$ You Save $
FW-98-20 Campagnolo 9 Speed Amber Spacers $3.00 $1.88 $1.12
FW-98-25 Campagnolo 9 Speed MK 2
10.8 mm Spacer $10.00 $7.88 $2.12
FW-98-26 Campagnolo 9 Speed MK 2
6.3 mm Spacer $10.00 $7.88 $2.12
 
Campagnolo 10 Speed MK 2 Cassette Spacers
 
12-25, 13-26 and 13-29 Spacer Profile
11 - 21 and 11 - 23 Spacer Profile

Left to Right;
an "L" spacer, an "i" spacer
and three "F" spacers Left to Right;
an "H" spacer, a "G" spacer
and three "F" spacers
   

Campagnolo 10 Speed MK 2 Cassette Spacers:

* Campagnolo 10 speed Record and Chorus MK 2 cassettes use five alloy spacers.
* Campagnolo uses the designation MK 2 for any cassette that has cogs riveted together as clusters. Non MK 2 cassettes are simply cassettes that have only individual cogs separated by single spacers.
* The width of the "F" spacers that separate the individual cogs on a Record or Chorus 10 speed cassette is 2.4 mm.
* 10 Speed MK 2 cassettes also use two, thicker spacers to separate the largest two, cog clusters. For easy reference all 10 speed spacers are colored in blue in the above technical drawings. The actual color is smoked chrome or black.
* Cassettes that start with an 11 tooth cog require a 2.5 mm alloy "G" spacer to separate the 6th and 7th position cog clusters. A 4.8 mm "H" spacer is used to separate the 7th and 8th position cog clusters. Three, 2.4 mm "F" spacers are employed to separate the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th position cogs.
For reference, the first position cog is always the smallest diameter cog.
* Cassettes that start with an 12 or 13 tooth cog require a 5 mm alloy "i" spacer to separate the 5th and 6th position cog clusters. A 3.9 mm "L" spacer is used to separate the 6th and 7th position cog clusters. Three, 2.4 mm "F" spacers are employed to separate the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th position cogs.
For reference, the first position cog is always the smallest diameter cog.
* Made in Italy by Campagnolo and backed with a three year warranty.

Part # Description Suggested Retail Our Price USD$ You Save $
FW-98-34 Campagnolo 10 Speed
Spacer "F" 2.4 mm $10.00 $7.88 $2.12
FW-98-35 Campagnolo 10 Speed
Spacer "G" 2.5 mm $10.00 $7.88 $2.12
FW-98-36 Campagnolo 10 Speed
Spacer "H" 4.8 mm $10.00 $7.88 $2.12
FW-98-37 Campagnolo 10 Speed
Spacer "i" 5.0 mm $10.00 $7.88 $2.12
FW-98-38 Campagnolo 10 Speed
Spacer "L" 3.9 mm $10.00 $7.88 $2.12
 
Shimano 9 Speed Cassette Spacers
 

 

Shimano 9 Speed Cassette Spacers:

* All Shimano 9 speed cassettes use the same aluminum alloy spacers.
* The width of each spacer is 2.56 mm.

* The spacers are identical and may be arranged in any order.
* Made in Japan by Shimano.

Part # Description Suggested Retail Our Price USD$ You Save $
FW-46-44 Shimano 9 speed Spacers $3.00 $1.88 $1.12

so from what i see i still think the campy spacers are thicker or else i am ;-) as the shimano spacers are identical all the way thru i would give it a shot by replacing them with campy spacers.there must be room for less than 1mm on a shimano cassette even if you have to resort on some threadlock for the lockring.

i think with some fettling it would work as well as what wheels manu offers for their $100's of naysayism. i still thinks its a rip-off. what are they doing that the average joe can't - seperating the cogs and adding different spacers.

http://www.branfordbike.com/cassette/cog19.html

now this is from wheels manu site

Now use your Campagnolo 9 spd shifters with your Shimano compatible
Wheelsets.

This fully remanufactured cassette just slides right on to your existing freehub
body with no alterations needed. Each cassette comes with 9 cogs, alloy
spacers, and a steel lockring. Steel cogs and alloy carrier reduce weight while
producing more responsive shifting.

Wheels Mfg remanufactures Ultegra or Dura Ace cassettes to Campagnolo
9 spd spacing. Works with most wheelsets:
Velomax
Stock Shimano hubs
Zipp
Hed
Rolff
American Classic
Spinergy
Nimble
Cane Creek

For Best results, use Campagnolo ergo 9 spd levers and 9 spd derailleur and
Rohloff 9 or Dura Ace 9 spd chain.

The following sizes are available in both Ultegra and Dura-Ace versions. ( ) notes
cogs on carrier. Weights listed are for Ultegra. Dura-Ace cassettes contain
titanium cogs, on the carrier ONLY! Weights are 25-40 g less than Ultegra,
depending on size.

ACCEL-UL1121 11-12-13-14-15-16-17-(19-21) 178 g
ACCEL-UL1221 12-13-14-15-16-17-(18-19-21) 178 g
ACCEL-UL1123 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-(21-23) 184 g
ACCEL-UL1223 12-13-14-15-16-17-(19-21-23) 184 g
ACCEL-UL1225 12-13-14-15-17-19-(21-23-25) 204 g
ACCEL-UL1227 12-13-14-15-17-19-(21-24-27 211 g

Suggested Retail: $130 Ultegra
$180 Dura-Ace

http://wheelsmfg.com/technology.html

as you can see their cassettes have their fixed/bonded cogs in brackets as comes from shimano and i can guarantee that these cogs are not re-spaced or altered.

my view still stands.

try the normal shimano cassette and if its not quite right throw some campy spacers in.
THE FACTS....C-40
Jan 6, 2002 7:29 AM
The cog spacing on shimano 9 speed is 4.32mm. Campy 9 speed cog spacing is 4.55mm. You will never have perfect shifting using a shimano cassette on a campy drivetrain.

The best shifting that you can get requires the rear derailleur to be aligned as closely as possible on the center cog, to distribute the error equally between up shifts and down shifts. The accumulative error will still be 20% in both directions, on the 4th shift. A better solution is to buy a special cassette from excel sports, which has the proper spacing ($100) or stick with all campy parts.
THE FACTS.... hmmmmmm ???CT1
Jan 6, 2002 10:51 AM
Thanks for the #'s!

FWIW: I was told by a tandem frame maker that the Shimano cassette and C ergo levers 'would work' so I suspect the 20% error is still within the tolorance level of the drivetrain.

Another minor tweek on the system might be to reshim the Shimano cassette with slightly wider spacers..... assuming the cogs would still fit the hub body. ???? 8 spacers (assuming there aren't any paired cogs) at 0.0009 ===> 0.072" wider stack. I would imagine I could even "split the difference" which would very likely allow the cogs and lockring to fit as normal.

I suspect that ultimately I'll have to just "guts up" and give it a try. As I said before, I'm NOT at all interested in buying some proprietary cassette. If it turns out that I must build a custom cassette I've done that before....... so I suspect I can do it again.

THANKS for the #'s.
JohnG
re: Campy ergo 9 levers + Shimano 9 cassette compatibility.????CampyOnly
Jan 9, 2002 3:57 PM
I use a Dura Ace 9 cassette with my Campy group. The reason I do so is that my Ksryium are pre Campy compatiable. I haven't had any problems doing this, and it shifts very smoothly.