|Help building new road bike||Ryan Lundin|
Nov 19, 2001 6:55 PM
|I'm gonna be building a new road bike soon, and would appreciate some suggestions on the parts and frame. Right now it's looking like it will weigh about 13 pounds. I've already got a 20 pound MTB, so I'm hooked on the lightweight stuff. Any suggestions that will save money, weight, or increase strenth and aero would be appreciated.
Levers/Shifters: Campy Record 10
Bars: TTT Prima 199
BB: Campy Record
Grips: Cinelli Cork Tape
Headset: King, Tange, Integrated?
Pedals: Speedplay X/3?
Wheels: American Classic Carbon
Tires: VeloFlex Record Tubular
Saddle: Selle Italia SLR
Seatpost: USE Carbon, or something aero?
Stem: Cinelli Solido
Frame: Giant TCR Team, Quattro-Assi Scandium, Cinelli Unica, Schwinn Fastback, Trek Carbon, Principia, Klein?
The places I'm most undecided are the frame and the wheels.
Would the American Classics be too noodly for my 175 lbs weight? Or would they be OK if I had them laced up with a ton of spokes? Or should I just buy Zipp rims, tune/american classic hubs, etc. separately and send them to Dave Thomas for a build? I don't want to spend more than 1K on the wheels.
For the frame, which of these is best? Other suggestions are welcome. It needs to be stiff, less than 1.5K, and the weight should be less than 2.5 pounds.
Again, any suggestions on any parts are welcome and appreciated, thanks!
|re: Help building new road bike||slow-ron|
Nov 19, 2001 7:03 PM
|all that stuff only weighs 13lbs, are you sure? I have no suggestions because you're out of my league but I was curious if American Classic makes a rear hub with a Campy compatable free hub because you have it listed in your parts spec.|
Nov 19, 2001 7:38 PM
|I'd pass on the Brew brakes. They're not beefy enough for you at 175#. I'm 175 myself, had the Cane Creek BRS200SL's for a while. Same brake, but not as much material removed as the Brew. Too flexy, didn't stop well. Brews would be worse. Replaced them with Mavic dual pivots. 50 gr. lighter than Campy's, and stop just as well.
Last I heard, AmClassic wasn't compatible with Campy cogs. You'd have to use a Wheels Mfg cogset (heavy) to make that work. Better choice would be a lightweight wheel with Campy compatible hubset, like Zipp 303s (or Hyperons, if cost no object).
The USE carbon seatpost has been subjected to a lot of criticism for difficulties in adjustment. Almost as light, and absolutely painless to adjust, is the WR Compositi. It's also sold by Pinarello, although at a much higher price.
Veloflex Record tubies? Boy, I hope you have smooth, clean roads. That's a very lightweight tire, really for racing only. I'd suggest the Crits instead, if you want VF tubies.
I don't think your bike will be anywhere close to 13 pounds, no matter how small the frame. At 175#, a 13 pound bike will flex, rub, break or have parts fall off. The state of the art just hasn't gone that far yet -- unless you spring for ADA wheels, carbon bars, etc.
I'm riding a 60 cm. LS Ultimate. I've fought (and spent!) to get it down to 17 lbs. That's with Ti stem, b/b, cogs; carbon cranks, levers, seat rails, seat post, King HS, Velomax wheels, silk sewups, and 9 spd. Record everything else. I could save a pound, maybe 1 1/2 pounds by going Al frame, all-carbon fork, but I can't imagine how I could go much lighter without sending the price into the stratosphere.
At 175#, I'd say an EXTREMELY lightweight bike would be 16#. Anything below that probably is either prohibitively expensive or "stupid light."
|re: Help building new road bike||metonymy3|
Nov 19, 2001 8:33 PM
|At 13 lbs., is this going to be just a "project bike", just to be ridden a little, or is this going to be your general racing bike? If it's just to look at, 13 lbs. may be ok, but at 175 lbs, I wouldn't plan on riding it too much. Any advantage you may have from low weight will be cancelled out 12 times by a terrible handling, flexy bike.
But... I doesn't look like the bike you spec'd is gonna be 13 lbs. That's good :-) Those Zipp 303s are light (the new Z3s especially), I don't know about weight limits. Speedplay X-1 or -2 would be better than X-3s, as long as you're going all out. You're under the 180 lbs. limit for the Ti spindle X-1s. I agree about the brakes -- not a place to skimp too much on weight. Headset I say King. Maybe a tad heavier, but it's just so great that it doesn't matter how much it weighs. Of course if the frame you pick has an integrated headset, then you're stuck with that.
If you're going for "stupid light", start buying Ti bolts for all your components, some Zipp bottle cages, light skewers, and that carbon Record crank!
|oh yeah, ITM The Stem - 100g||metonymy3|
Nov 19, 2001 8:45 PM
|re: Help building new road bike||jostigen|
Nov 20, 2001 4:58 AM
|You can buy my Lew Race-lites. Weight is 1225 (guaranteed). They are spoked 20/24 and should be plenty stiff for you. Very little used due to few competitions. Hubs are WI (titanium version). Rim is 43 mm solid unilateral carbon (290 grams) and simply the best ever made! I wouldn't trust those AC... Same rims as on Lew's new "Sydney" (see http://www.lew-usa.com ). The wheels were bought in 2000 for $1295, and I'm asking $800. You can also have two brand new Tufo S3 Lite 215 grams for additional $80. But the Veloflex are nice too, of course.|
Nov 20, 2001 8:00 AM
|down tube shifters |
replace all Ti with Al
carbon where you can
for 13 lb. bike,
leave off the tires/tubes & hang on the wall
great art object.
if riding on desert flat's only; no stop lights:
leave off the rear brake & lever; front shifter
go with single front chain ring
My road 58cm OCLV is ~17.XX lbs.
The Klein med frame Al Mtb is ~20.XX lbs
w/ "heavy" Ritchey WCS 2.35 tires; Air-B tubes
some good piks on your list ...
& good luck with the project :)
|Frames - take a look for some interesting deals here...||muncher|
Nov 20, 2001 8:39 AM
I have nothing to do with the shop, but noticed that they have some good frames disconted at the moment - carbon, steel and Al, as well as some other part too.
|It's not gonna happen,||TJeanloz|
Nov 20, 2001 9:09 AM
|I have a lot of experience building light bikes, and you aren't going to get this one close to 13 pounds.
Use the Brew brakes if you don't care about stopping, Mavic if you do care.
Crankset? Record, even the new carbon, isn't nearly the lightest. Get a proven carbon crank- CAT, ZIPP or FSA.
Pedeals need to be X/1 instead of X/3.
Saddle could be the AX Composites job- much lighter than an SLR.
Handlebars should also be something carbon, like the Easton EC90.
Stem will need to be ITM 'The Stem' or similar.
Frame? Custom Calfee maybe? Colnago C-40? Litespeed Ghisallo?
It is probably possible to get this bike down to 13lbs; but I've had a lot of customers take these steps and not get below 15 lbs.
|It's not gonna happen,||hogsports|
Nov 20, 2001 4:42 PM
|You seem to know a lot about building up bikes. I just found out my "99 Bottecchia frame is cracked.
#1 Can I do anything to continue using this frame?
#2 If not, please give me a few smart choices for frames to replace this one (Italian or French) & I'll have to find someone to change over my Chorus parts to the new frame I select.
|It's not gonna happen,||TJeanloz|
Nov 21, 2001 8:31 AM
|1. Depending on what the frame is made out of, and where the crack is, it may be repairable by your local framebuilder. Regardless of where the crack is, do not continue to ride the cracked frame.
2. If the frame is not repairable, or would be more expensive to repair than it's worth, there are a few frames I would look into. For a beautiful Italian steel bike, look at Mondonico- they're among the best steel bikes going and start at <$1000 for the frameset. Torelli aluminum is also fairly nice- both of these provide excellent quality at a very good value. In bigger bike company terms, there's always Bianchi and Colnago, and both produce a full range of good frames.
|1/10 rule, but still hope||gimondi|
Nov 20, 2001 9:05 PM
|We tell guys at our shop about the 1/10 rule, this says: a bike 1/10 your weight IS a light bike for YOU. This is not anything against big or small guys, just says that if you have similar power to body weight as other guys, a bike 1/10 your weight would be an advantage if his bike was 1/9 his weight, in terms of total power/weight. Kind of a diminishing returns sort of effect. But what the hell I love cool stuff:
*The biggie: call Calfee and have him do a custom frame with an AME sub300 fork (saves 50+gms). You can come in under 2.75lb for both and Craig can design and build a frame which is still matched to your needs, he'll even skip the paint, another 50+gm savings. The other guys are right, if it is flexy it doesn't matter if it is 8 lbs. because you waste so much energy on brake rub, frame rub, and a multitude of components flexing that the weight is meaningless. A Prince or similar frame will also get close and be more than adequate structurally, and I would avoid compact geometry as you almost always end up with a heavier bike due to the long seatpost and such.
*skip the AM Classic wheels, too noodly because the flanges are small and closely spaced, plus weight looks good due to low spoke count. Also you can figure spoke weight is a wash as you need 20% more spokes if you use a 20% lighter spoke, don't skimp here, rubbing the brake pads sucks and wastes way more energy than light weight will ever save you. Get 2002 Zipp 303's, 1135gm for the pair, 20/28, 14 ga. ovalized, flanges are wider and larger than last year, and nobody under 225lb complained about those being flexy. I also had a guy remove every other non-drive spoke on his 303's to be like DaveThomas Triplet lacing, saves 35grams and seems to be just as strong.
*More than your 1K limit, but new Z3 wheels, 950grams for the pair, another 1/2 pound without even trying and you are under the 185-195lb limit, check their website.
*ITM the Stem for sure, use proper torque, however, they tend only break when overtightened.
*Prima199, over 140 sold without a single problem.
*Works well with Zipp bar tape and carbon bar-end plugs saves?.
*Record Carbon Crank with Phil Wook BB. Saves 50+gms. bb plus crank savings 120gm. Or Zipp crank if you can find one with DA bb, roughly the same weight at half the price.
*Tufo S3 light or similar. 60-90gm. per tire lighter and still very durable.
*USE post is light and pain in the arse to adjust. I have guys who drilled out both USE aero and Campy post to save 25-30 grams. Wait, having bad 70's flashback...
*Use Brew brake on rear and Record on Front. You can replace bolts or whatever, but you NEED a front brake.
*Look at Wipperman 10speed chain, supposedly 30gms lighter than Campy plus no PermaLink
*Saddle: Flite SLR evo, will definitely make a man out of you, and is still better than WR, trust me.
All in all you will break 15 lbs and probably be reasonably happy with the performance of the bike. I think if you added just 1 extra pound in areas of spokes, pedals (ti speedplays are real flexy at your weight) frame, saddle you would be happier. Remember a stiffer bike feels light as it accelerates fast, but a squishy bike feels sluggish even if it is light. All this weight that you take out at the margins, reduced spoke count, ti bolts, ti pedal spindle, ti BB, super-light frame: are things that past a point will begin to affect performance as weight is decreased.
|wrong 1/10 rule||DaveG|
Nov 21, 2001 9:21 AM
|On this board the 1/10 rule means you spend 1/10 of your income trying to get a bike lighter than all your riding buddies!|
|wrong 1/10 rule||weiwentg|
Nov 21, 2001 4:27 PM
|one tenth of my weight is 13 bloody pounds. I'd need a litespeed ghisallo and campy hyperons in a track bike setup to achieve that weight.|
|1/10 rule, but still hope||cyclepath|
Nov 23, 2001 6:41 PM
|How about looking into loosing weight yourself? Could you loose 5 to 10 pounds off your body???? That would be a better( and cheaper) start, eh?????|
|re: Help building new road bike||ML|
Nov 20, 2001 9:23 PM
I think your way to hooked on this 13lb. thing, BTW the last post or one before mine was GREAT advise. Think of it this way from a non technical point of view. In the pro peloton they have a weight limit on bikes ( Minimum). So try and make your gains there and not impress your friends with a sub-par 13lb. bike that any 17lb. would out performe.
Just an opinion, best of luck.
|re: Help building new road bike||LAN|
Nov 22, 2001 12:30 PM
|Here are some suggestions:
Storck Scenario Pro, 1350g, STW: 71 NM/KG, Test winner in german Tour.
Principia RS6 Pro, 1229g, STW: 67,3 NM/KG, second place
The german magazines test products strenght and stiffness in "labratories". STW means stiffness to weight ratio.
The Storck Scenario was the stiffest in the test. The weight listed is for the comp-cote surface treatment.
Other good bikes in the test: Cannondale, Klein and Specialized.
Stay away from Giant and Trek. Not stiff at all.
Forks: Storck Stiletto Light or Storck Stiletto, 280g or 330g
Cranks: Negmass carbon crank/axle ca.330g Storck Powerarms Pro 310g
Check out www.negmass.com and www.storck-bicycles.de
Bars: Schmolke Spurtstark 155g (expensive)
Saddles: AX-Lightness or Tune Speed Needle
Seatposts: AX-Lightness(under testing, should be 125g for 350mm), Tune Starkes Sturck 190g for 330mm, Schmolke post(under testing, should be under 100g)
Wheels: Lightweight Wheels(as used by Lance on the mountain TT in TdF) or Zipp/Tune/Sapim 1040g
Tires: Tufo S3 Lite: 18mm 135g, 19mm 195g, 21mm 215g
Others might say that a 13lbs bike is not rideable, but if you pay big bucks for quality parts you can get a good bike.
Cheap and superlight probably means less stiff.
Try to get your bike as aero as possible since the weight doesn't count much on the flats. Specially the wheels. Here are the Lightweight Wheels very good.
Bolts: Try to get alu bolts everywere except on the stem and post. Get ti bolts for stem and post.
Other: Tune bottle cage 8g, Tune qr's 49g, tuning for Speedplay X1 pedals makes them 120g
Good luck with the bike!!
Nov 23, 2001 8:37 AM
|Stay far, far away from that Trek OCLV POS. German magazines always know more than Tour de France champions. (Yes I am well aware that USPS is paid to ride Treks, but you can't win a grand tour on a sh_t bike)|
Nov 23, 2001 9:40 AM
|Big riders want big paycheck, that only big companies can afford. That's why Lance uses Trek, Mavic and Shimano.
The German magazines tests the parts in different machines to figure out stiffness, durability ect. Numbers don't lie.
But I'm not saying that a bike should only be jugde by this numbers. Handling, stability and overall feels is more important of course. I did not mean that the Trek is a bad bike, but it's not as stiff as others. And because most professional uses the same equipment(Mavic, Campagnolo, Shimano, Deda, ITM, ect.), their bikes are very similar.
By the way, the equipement doesn't count much compared to fitness. So I believe that Lance and Jan would be first and second even if the changed bikes. This reminds me of a book called "It's not about the bike" written by a certain individual.
|re: Help building new road bike||schills|
Nov 30, 2001 9:24 AM
|I'm located here in the US and was definetly interested in the TUNE and AX products. However, both refused to ship to this country. I spoke with my uncle who happens to be an attorney in Germany. I thought I'd get him to order and ship to me. He was happy to do so, but his research discovered a number of product liability claims. That was why they stopped shipping to the states. Anyone have any additional info?|| |