|Let's clear the spoke problem one and for all||Cyclorocket|
Nov 3, 2001 6:10 PM
1- Spoke gauge is not important : 38 spoke rolfs have 2.0-1.2-2.0 bladed (14-17-14 I think) and have the same strengh due to higher spoke tension. shim to uses 14-17 bladed spokes.
2- Bladed spokes helps : "Bladed spokes have 85% of the air resistance of normal round spokes" http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/aero/aerodynamics.htm
3- J-bend spoke (shim) is just for style ?
4- higher flange means more stiffness
5- direct pull spokes for hubset such has HED sonic, http://www.hedcycling.com/sonichub.htm , are 40% more strong the bented ones ?
6- no flange (like HED sonic hubset) means less stiffness and what else ?
Don't be scared bitchin' at me, It going to resolves spoke questions for real.
(I'm on cpu all day, I got my a toar gastuoenemium (leg triceps, spelling is wrong) left and a achilles tendonitis right (he has to handle my weight all day long)
|Could we maybe not?||Jofa|
Nov 4, 2001 3:44 AM
|I understand that you're not writing in your first language, a skill for which I applaud you: it is a lot more than I could do. It is perhaps because of this, however, that your writing frequently appears incoherent and rambling... I'm afraid I'm losing track of the points you're trying to clarify.
You have an interest in the way a wheel works, so why not start at the beginning: buy Jobst Brandt's book and read it. It addresses at least some of the points you raise above and others you've mentioned elsewhere, unambiguously. A lot of data has been gathered in response to disputes about the bicycle wheel, which has been used to make some surprising discoveries about how it and its components do their jobs. There's no need to make dubious assumptions about things like spokes when they are now well-understood.
We all have the same aim: we'd like strong light wheels which don't break. I've expained below why I don't like wheels with few spokes: this isn't my half-baked or even cleverly-formed opinion: it is just prevailing theory. However you like them and that is fine.
I hope your legs sort themselves out soon,
|...my of the the topic :||Cyclorocket|
Nov 4, 2001 10:44 AM
I've built many wheelsets going from tandem 48 spokes on hadley hubs to rebuilting a 35$ wheelset from AVP (very cheap bikes in quebec) passing from standard open pro. My XC wheelset has been brutalized on 900 km this summer (24spoke front,3 rear) and I never got eny problem.
I didn't got eny problems (spoke brokage etc...truing is RARELLY involved, has to be a very big drop)
I'm racing (RR) in montreal and sherbrooke (quebec) +1000 km and did not get or SEE eny wheelset problems. I know two fattys (total + 350lbs) on a tendem using 48 spokes (built by me !) using hadley hubset, brass niples, ambrosio rims, 14-17-14 bladed, no problems.
You can read where I'm heading to :
This site (roadbikereview) is full of info (reviews,chats...) but people are only taking about the stengh of objects,witch is 1% of what we care about, RR inflict finishing first, ...second and last are the same. If you want to finish first you need the good equipements, (low weight and good aerodynamics)
Indeed what I can read (90%) here, is racers scared of racing becuz of equipements problems, spoke brakage,deraileurs getting stuck...etc. do you realized guys how it stupid to loose time on components strengh ? Riding (for me) and RR is so much fun when everything goes fast and accelerates fast too, who cares when a spoke breaks once in a year, performance brings fun !
happy riding, I'm going to chiropratics (spelling !!!) for my bonuses I got ending a 8.8km TT with my friends on a sprint (I've just partly destroy my left leg triceps....at least it's was on 1st November, so season was finish!)
|Why, but why...?||TJeanloz|
Nov 4, 2001 9:03 AM
|Do we always have to find a final solution to the biggest questions in cycling for you?
The problem with your post is that you post 6 facts that are not facts. Don't believe everything you read, including this:
1. Spoke gauge is important. You point out that Rolf has the same strength. Same strength as what? They use a 14gauge bladed spoke- of course they have the same or better strength than a 14gauge spoke. It might be news if they were using a 17gauge spoke and had the same strength as a 14gauge spoke. You have also not held tension constant. Holding everything constant, a thicker spoke will usually be stronger.
2. Bladed spokes are almost certainly more aerodynamic than round spokes- but they are often (not always) heavier. It's a trade-off that the rider needs to evaluate and make.
3. J-bend spokes are just for style? I don't understand that a bit. J-bend spokes are the universal standard in the industry- not a style issue.
4. Higher flange means more stiffness. Holding all else constant, this is true- but mostly because it allows for a shorter spoke. Flange design and execution also come into this equation- a Joytech high-flange hub may not be stiffer than a Record low-flange.
5. Direct pull spokes might be stronger. Most spokes fail at the bend, direct pull spokes probably help address that problem. 40% stronger? I don't know, but I don't usually believe Steve Hed.
6. No flange hubs do not necessarily mean less stiffness. Because of the direct pull design, the spokes can be at higher tension, offsetting the loss of the flange.
Of these questions you keep asking, none will ever be resolved, because the answers are different for different people and even different applications for the same people.
|re: Let's clear the spoke problem one and for all||Cyclorocket|
Nov 4, 2001 10:20 AM
|What I'm tring to say :
What ever the style of the spoke is not important, what is important is how it's managed : 14-17-14 bladed from 18 spoke front rolf will be as strong as a 14 full gauge 18 spoke front, what is the matter in this question is spoke tension not spoke gauge;
The thikness on the spoke is usefull ONLY when the spoke has a very low tension, a wheelset that has 20kg tension will be stronger if using 13 gauge spoke but boost up the tension to 100kg and you really don't need more then 15gauge.
and those question can be awnsered scientificly, higher flange is givin more stiffness becuz of a shorter spoke, so what's the big deal with gauge, I use 14-17-14 (24front,32rear) on my XC wheelset too and I don't see ENY problem dropping 5'.
Wheels are all physics guys (girls too...) problem is that I only did one physic course in high scool 4.
|you are more or less totally wrong||Jofa|
Nov 4, 2001 12:30 PM
|in all these theories, at least insofar as I can understand them. A little research will explain to you why.
|"you are more or less totally wrong" Hilarious||JS|
Nov 5, 2001 1:09 PM