|Anyone see the Hurricane stem at Interbike?||Treviso|
Oct 18, 2001 9:05 PM
|It was sweet. Here's the spec's from their catalog, manufactured from 7075 T-6 aerospace alloy, heli coils in all threads for strenght no more stripped threads, opposing steerer clamping bolts, feathered edges on bar clamp? 10 degree plus or minus rise, removable faceplate. lenghts 100mm-130mm.
My shop has a bunch on order, Im taking a 120mm when they arrive
It looked like something made in Italia, bit made in the USA.
|Lacking 1 stat...||TJeanloz|
Oct 19, 2001 7:09 AM
|Weight? If it's heavier than the Ritchey WCS, I can't see any advantage to it. Everything else- opposed bolts, removable facepate, feathered edges, are already offered on the light, and affordable, Ritchey.|
Oct 19, 2001 10:48 AM
|Hard to beat the WCS - it's light and the bolts don't strip, and it's stiff as a crutch. |
But there is no accounting for people's taste - some people actually like the Mutant and it offers nothing compared to the WCS other than some gaudy styling. Ultimately people want to be indiviuals and express themselves. It would be a pretty boring world if everyone thought like an engineer.
Oct 19, 2001 11:29 AM
|The Mutant offers style, and what's more important than looking good?|
Oct 19, 2001 5:09 PM
|The Hurricane "Stelvio" stem is a little Heavier than the Ritchey at 150 grams for the 120mm, but is stronger and with heli coils has stronger thread and bolt contact. It is made from 7075 T-6 aluminum which yeilds alot more strenght that the 2014 which Ritchey uses. According to Jeff at Hurricane, the Ritchey does not use "feathered edges" on the bar clamp, Hurricane will be the first to use them. A "feathered edge" is like a outside chamfer instead of having a inside chamfer. How it works and it advantages are, according to Jeff, its like a 1/16th of a inch ring basically at the farthest edge of the bar clamp and what it does it slightly flexes with the bar relieving stress at that area, its a great idea for the new carbon and lightweight aluminum bars. Basically it not a sharp edge like on all stems. According to Jeff, the idea comes directly from the aerospace industry, they use that on sattelite's when they bond a carbon tube to a aluminum sleeve. I would say check the stem out on their website, but its not there yet, maybe next week.|
|Blah, blah, blah,||TJeanloz|
Oct 22, 2001 8:01 AM
|It is very interesting that Hurricane built a stronger stem than Ritchey, but it is completely insignificant. You don't need to build something stronger than what is already one of the safest stems on the market. Especially when dumba@@es like myself shun them for even lighter products like "The Stem". If I wanted stronger, I'd buy the Ritchey. Hurricane might have a valid point if the Ritchey WCS was failing all the time.
To sum it up, here's why the Hurricane will never sell:
1. It's not light. Weight counts for a lot in road bikes.
2. The 'feathered edge'. This thing makes the stem more flexy and that's a selling point? Seriously, even with ultra light bars (Prima 199/Easton EC90) I don't remember a rash of handlebar failures. So they solved a problem that didn't exist.
3. Heli-coil inserts. That's an awesome feature if you hire a monkey to do your mechanics. Use a torque wrench, and you have no use for the heli-coil. My stem requires very specific torque and will strip very easily. Do I care? No.
So Hurricane solved a lot of problems that aren't really problems. That's helpful. The learned that in the MTB market you can sell things by virtue of them being stronger. In the road market, stronger is nice, lighter is nicer. The only hope for this product is that somebody with a light stem will steal some of the good design features.
Oct 22, 2001 9:18 AM
|While 7075 T-6 alu. may have stronger specs consider that hogging stuff ouot of a billet cuts across the grain structure while a forging aligns the grain structure. Until they fail the stems under a destructive test in a lab this discussion is academic at best. Certainly not a valid selling point - maybe someone should tell Jeff. How exactly is the heli coil setup better than a properly designed bolt/thread interface? Answer: it's not. Heli-coils were originally designed to fix screwups. They can be integrated into a design based on concerns like corrosion, frequent removal, over tightening, undersized bolts, etc. A "feathered edge" that you describe is nothing more than a chamfer desgined to reduce the stress riser at the interface - possible a good idea if the bars are at their design limit and the stem chamfer is flexing, which based on cross sectional area it is not. The internal radius on the Ritchey does much the same thing. The new lightweight carbon and alu. bars have already addressed the stress concentration at the stem interface - none of them are requireing a special stem. |
Basically they are throwing out another stem design and solving some problems that don't exist except on the poorer designs. All this at a 20% weight hit over a Ritchey WCS - it probably costs more too. What a bonus.
|A miracle in action?||TJeanloz|
Oct 22, 2001 9:28 AM
|Grzy, is this the first time we've ever agreed on anything?
Wonders never cease.
Compute the current odds that "Treviso" works for, or is intimately involved with, Hurricane Components Inc. He seems a little too excited about a product that appears to suck. And with the "did anybody see at Interbike" he's just trying to build hype. Lots of people saw the damn thing, nobody was impressed enough to remember it.
|A miracle in action?||Treviso|
Oct 22, 2001 10:44 AM
|TJeanloz, Do you work for Ritchey? It seems you pump them up alot. I also posted messages in the past about Mavic, Campagnolo, Seven, Cannondale and others. Are you under the assumption I work for those companies also? I read post all the time talking how someone likes a component or bike, maybe all of them or anyone on this site all work for the companies they just happen to like.
I saw alot of things at the show, the stem was one of things that stuck in my mind, sorry it offends you.
As for your take on the Hurricane Stelvio stem, your wrong on many points, while it does weight a little more than the Ritchey, it is stronger. It weights the same as the stems from ITM, Deda, 3T and Cinelli and I just happen to see more of these and sell more of these than the Ritchey.
Heli-coils are the way to go for a stem, if the average buyer or mechanic used a torque wrench, you probably would'nt need heli-coils, read the VeloNews article a few months back on this subject from Leonard Zinn. A Heli coil will ALWAYS be better and stronger than threading into a piece of aluminum, they were not designed just to fix a stripped thread.
I respect your veiw's on this site, but dont talk about a subject you obvisiusly know nothing about.
I think the Hurricane is a viable product, because it addresses some current and potenial problems. They just saw what was on the market and made it better. It sounds like this stem is'nt for you and thats OK, it does'nt mean that the product will fail because you dont like it sight unseen.
|A miracle in action?||TJeanloz|
Oct 22, 2001 11:36 AM
|I apologize, I ran an archive search for your name, and could only find this one post- none referencing Mavic, Campagnolo, Seven or others.
Further, your post appeared to be cut-and-paste from the Hurricane catalog- which is a little peculiar for these forums.
No I don't work for Ritchey. I really admire only one of their products- Ritchey Blue rim tape. The irony of this situation is that I don't think the WCS stem is all that. It just happens to be everything the Hurricane is and lighter to boot. My stem of choice is ITM's "The Stem". That being said, I think the WCS is way better when you factor in price.
As for being wrong on many points, you fail to say which points. It is true that ITM, Deda, Cinelli and 3T all offer price-point stems in the same weight class as the Hurricane, none of them are the companies "sweet" (to use your word) offerings.
You discuss a Lennard Zinn article in VeloNews. It will please you to know that the shop I worked at is Lennard's LBS. Most of the things he writes about come from experience at our shop. Check out the acknowledgement page in any of his books.
I'll concede that the heli-coil is an awesome idea if you let a monkey torque your stem bolts. As long as a mechanic is doing it with the proper tools (a torque wrench), there's no need.
As for not talking about a subject that I obviously know nothing about, we could compare heli-coil palmares? I've used them more times than I would have liked to on repair jobs.
I concede that the Hurricane has some nice features. And if it came in at 100g in a 120mm, it would be my product of the year. But I havn't seen a lot of stripped stems when a torque wrench was used, and I've never seen a JRA bar failure. So they solved problems that didn't exist. Good on 'em. Maybe next year they'll find some problems that do exist. And I looked around the Hurricane web site, if this thing looks like any of the stems there, it's bound to be an aestetic hit in the road market.
|A miracle in action?||Treviso|
Oct 23, 2001 7:55 AM
|I think I might need to get a restraining order on you..The reason you probably never have seen my post, this was the first post with this new format, but who cares, Detective TJeanloz.
The reason it sounded like my post came from Hurricane's catalog, was because I happened to pick one up, as well as about 1,000 others.
I think Ritchey makes nice stuff, Im not knocking them their, just wish they made their components in the USA instead of the land of questionable material and quality control, Taiwan.
If you say the Hurricane stem sucks, and the Ritchey is so great, you must have got really ripped off using the "The" stem which retails for $259.
The Hurricane Stelvio weights about 250 grams and should retail for $89, you do the math.
As for stripped threads, I quess you have'nt read some of the other post regarding stems or had customers bring back stems with stripped threads. That seems to be the biggest complaint. I agree, if you have a certified mechanic who uses a torque wrench you would eliminate the problem, unfortunatly, most people dont, so heli coils, IMO, are a good idea with only a slight weight penalty(2 grams).
You say they solved problems that dont exist, I think thats the way companies dhould think, especially if it does'nt affect the cost or in your case, the weight.
It seems to me that if you dont like something, its crap or a failure. The Hurricane stem is just another choice, its not going to make you win races or beat your personal best, but what product can?
I really did'nt want to get into this subject so deep. I was just checking to see if anyone saw their stem, I liked it as well as loads of other products.
Answering on another post, questioning about the claim of the Hurricane stem being stronger, it is by virtue of material strenght. Here's some spec's I looked up,
7075 T-6 of the Hurricane has a tensile strenght of 83ksi verses the 2011 T-8 of the Ritchey has 59ksi, yeild 73ksi, vs 45ksi.
Heli coils, yes they are threaded in, but to put it basic, they thread into a hole smaller that the diameter of the heli coil, making it stay put. When a bolt is threaded into it, it expands slightly making it even more secure, it will hold the bolt much more secure than threading directly into aluminum. You also say the Ritchey cannot get stripped threads, where the hell you come up with that? Any stem can benefit from heli coils, especially using smaller bolts like the 5mm bolts that are used.
Anyway, over and out, this is my last response to this beaten subject.
Oct 23, 2001 8:10 AM
|You simply can't take the material properties and make a blanket statement - some how you didn't read my whole sentance "....the design matters." But that's OK - they'll probably make a fortune on people like yourself. 250 g. for a stem is obscene. |
Since when did Taiwan become a land of questionable quality control and that some how America ruled this arena? We get an awful lot of stuff from Taiwan and it works just fine. Don't forget this is the land that brought you things like the Challenger disaster and the Detroit auto industry. Your post smacks of racism.
Ultimately your you draw many conclusions that aren't supported and your thought process is incomplete.
Oct 23, 2001 9:42 AM
|I'm a economist- we'll let the market sort this one out.|
Oct 23, 2001 2:34 PM
|Yeah, you'd think that all the crappy designs would be gone by now. The market doesn't seem to work as "perfectly" as it should so one might assume that we're dealing with less than perfect information.|
Oct 23, 2001 10:07 AM
|I know I said I was done responding to this subject, but these last things.The weight of the stem is 150grams, not 250 grams, my mistake. Design does matter, but what in the design of the Ritchey makes it superior? Have you seen the Hurricane stem? if you have'nt, dont knock it.
Racist? your knocking the US, are'nt you? I could name hundreds of Taiwan's mistakes in designs and workmanship over the US, Taiwan's coming around but they still are behind the US and the other high tech countries.
It seems to me, you and TJeanloz are one and the same, and are not reading my post's fully or at least smart enough to comprehend them.
If you were to manufacture similar stems out of the two materials 2011 and 7075, the 7075 will be stronger. Cost of materials is sometimes the deciding factor when choosing materials for parts, 7075 cost almost double of 2011. I know this from working in a machine shop a few years back. The Ritchey and the Hurricane seem to be similar. Where the Hurricane carries a little more weight is at the steerer clamp. The Ritchey is minimalist at the steerer clamp, the Hurricane has a little more material there, other that that, not much difference besides materials used.
Can we just get off this subject, I was going to comment on a above post regarding a carbon post for a compact frame, but felt I might get critisized for bringing up a product name(It wa'nt Hurricane, although they make seatpost too.)
We all have opinions, how can you be so critical of someone else's? I know what I know, sometime's Im wrong.
I think you need to look into a mirror, and realize that sometimes you can be too.
|Not So Fast||grzy|
Oct 22, 2001 2:15 PM
|A heli-coil is actually threaded into the stripped hole with....ah, gee, threads. So either way you look at it you're still threading into a piece of aluminum. It's just that if you make those threads to small for the material and loads you'll strip it. to make a blanket statment that a heli-coil will always be stronger overlooks the fact that you could just use a bolt with the same O.D. of the heli-coil. A stainless steel heli-coil in stainless steel material for use witha stainless steel bolt isn't going to be any stronger. The heli-coil simply takes a concetrated load and distributes it across a larger area and there's nothing magic about that. |
It's kinda funny, but the Ritchey WCS doesn't need heli-coils NOR does it need a torque wrench. In fact I have yet to use one on it. Methinks that TJeanloz and myself have installed a few and know something about it. You're just taking what the Hurricane guy says as gospel. All TJ said was I don't think it will be that succesful and why. His reasoning is sound and I think he's probably right. Given the number of stems on the market it's hard to see some upstart being succesful unless they blow the field away and it's on every pro-bike that gets featured in the press.
It's also kinda funny how you tell TJenaloz that he doesn't know what he's talking about (does that include myslef as well?) nor that you don't deny working for Hurricane or have a vested interest. At the end of the day engineering is about continuous improvement and trying to avoid reinventing the wheel if you don't have to. Use what works and fix what doesn't. I'd say that Ritchey did a pretty good job of it, first with the Pro then the WCS. If the other mfr.s slap heli-coils in then Hurricane looses one of it's advantages, plus they'll all still be heavier. Where do you come off saying that the Hurricane is *stronger* - where is the data? You can't just go on material specs - the design matters.
Like he said, the Hurricane is a solution looking for a problem, and for that you get to pay a weight and cost penatly. What irks you is a thoughful response to your adcopy.
|A miracle in action?||grzy|
Oct 22, 2001 10:51 AM
|Hmmm, actually I agree with a lot of what you write. Maybe the reverse isn't true?! BTW - that's OK, I even disagree with myself some days. |
No doubt about it Ricthey really nailed the WCS design and has left that segment of the market scratching their heads on how to up the ante. Most everything else is some combintaion of heavy, gaudy, flimsy, or weak.
I didn't go to Interbike - someday I hope to (I'm embarrassed to admit that last time I went to Vegas was for Tailhook...). In any event, yeah lots of enthusiasm and a plethora of bullet points. Probably his marketing guy trying to throw a few feelers out and get some feed back. Unfortunately there is lots of hype in the bike biz and the quasi-engineering folks get away with murder on their add copy. When one lacks in hard objective data then the subjective takes over. They'll probably claim that it's more aerodynamic as well.....
|A miracle in action?||Skip|
Oct 22, 2001 8:37 PM
|I'd like to see both (Tailhook & Inter.) at Vegas, but I'd give my left one for Tailhook (and being a naval aviator); I wouldn't for Inter.|
|7075 T-6 "aerospace alloy" = Aluminum nm||dug|
Oct 19, 2001 7:17 AM
|Seriously--no flames--what am I missing here?||cory|
Oct 23, 2001 10:57 AM
|I could never get excited about stems...there's just no romance in 'em. All they have to do is stick up in the air and not break. The $13.95 Kalloy on my beater Bridgestone does that as well as the $100 whatever-it-is (see? I already forgot) on my Atlantis.
Somebody tell me what I'm overlooking here. I mean, if it were something interesting, like an inner tube, I could see it, but...
Oct 23, 2001 2:32 PM
|Maybe that's the point! You got some non-techie pseudo educated guy touting a particular model sounding like a marekting lackey and can't even get the facts straight. He asked our thoughts, but didn't really want to hear them. All we did is point out that it was heavier than one of the finer offerings which hasn't had any failures. In essence this guy's promoting a solution to a problem that either doesn't exist or one who's solution has been better executed.... a year ago. We just said to be succesful you're going to have to up the ante - obviously in the serious stem market segment this ain't so. I'm sure that if we agreed with hiom he'd be feeling better.. he keeps saying he's not going to respond, but does anyway - in a bipolar sort of way. |
The really funny thing about the stem is that it is such a plain and boring functional component, yet the component manufactures want to flood the market with crappy products. Heavy, expensive, flexible and over engineered rubbish (Mutant, Deda Newton, etc.). The only thing worse is the people that promote them. There are people out there that spend $300 on a flexible Seven ti stem and think it's worth every penny. Get ready for the new wave of untested carbon designs and a whole new set of failure modes.
Really, we should get on to more important things like valve stem caps. ;-)
|Untested carbon designs?||TJeanloz|
Oct 23, 2001 4:15 PM
|Where can I get my hands on one of those? I tried and tried to get one of the Time monobloc's, but they never made it. Tested or not, I want it.|
|Great, at long last....||Berry|
Oct 24, 2001 4:47 AM
|An end to all those broken stems and flexing bars that, despite being 260lbs, I have never had.....|| |