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Brakes...Has anyne noticed that Ultegra work better than DA?(44 posts)

Brakes...Has anyne noticed that Ultegra work better than DA?Jimbob
Apr 6, 2001 7:49 AM
Ive never been impressed with my DA brakes. I rode my buddies bike with Ultegra and they worked really well. Almost like Record. I wanted to put some Rcord/Chorus caplipers on but they dont mix with DA levers. Im thinking of putting an Ultegra on the front just for extra power. ANyone heard of this??
Apr 6, 2001 8:52 AM
Depends upon alot of variables which brakes work better. The rim finish, which pads you are using, the cabling, the terrain and how you modulate your brakes and on and on.....neither set has a pure mechanical advantage; they are generically the same brakes. Polished rim braking surfaces that are clean and dry provide the best dry braking, but less effective in the wet or damp. You brake pad set, even how you adjust them can do wonders. Many aftermarket pads are available, try some. (I hear the debate approaching) Cabling can affect your "feel" and percieved pressure. Modulating too much on the front or too much on the rear can reduce braking efficiency, much like a motorcycle. Tire choice and inflation pressure play into the mix also. With all of these variables, keep what you have and find advantage in the set-up. I use DA brakes with Aztec pads, adjust for toe-in and clean the rim surface with IP alcohol. When modulating brakes, you need to find the balance, too much front reduces contact in the rear and reduces rear effectiveness, which in turn can cause a bit of fading in the front brakes. Too much rear robs efficiency from the front. Careful for what you ask for, lots of riders lock-up, blow out and go down. Later, they admire the great brakes while picking road scabs on the sideline.
Yeah, but...........Jimbob
Apr 6, 2001 9:54 AM
Yes, I agree that rims can play a big part in brakes. But both were on Open Pros with stock Shimano pads. Granted, his rims may be cleaner but I know mine arent that bad. It's a substantial difference. The Ultegras are a heavier caliper, hence most likely, less flex and more force to the pad. Just like the Record. It's a heavier caliper and they work better.

Im not talking about modulation, Im talking pure power. A couple times I gave the front brake all it had and its lacking a bit. Ideally, front brakes should account for 70% and rear 30%. The rear just cant be as effective a brake with no weight on it. The front gets all the traction in braking. Most street motorcycles have two large discs in the front and one smaller in the rear because of this. Your car probably has discs up front and less effective drums in the rear. If it has discs in the rear the rotors are smaller. Under full braking with traction permitting, you should be able to stop just as quick with so much front brake that your rear is airborn. If your rear is touching it's a fine line between skidding and rolling. Rolling is better but its tough to get it perfect without an antilock brake system. But braking is not a big factor in road racing as it is in Mtbs, or motorcycles or cars. As long as you can slow down securely. I do however, wish I had a bit more power up front. Maybe I need to mess with toe, etc. But I know pad for pad and rim for rim his Ultegra was putting more force to the rim.

Also, you should have your return springs set up as light as possible for the given cable friction to lessen the force at the lever. This is a small thing but can make a difference.
Yeah, but...........And?gimmeaminute
Apr 6, 2001 10:22 AM
Good to know how many things were the same. Flex can come from a variety of areas, and IMO, the actual brake body in this case is the least likely. Consider the post in which the brake is mounted and even more likely, the cable itself.

I won't debate the body of your post, but I do suggest you revisit the physics of braking. :)

Braking in RR is a big deal. Gaining an advantage with the equipment you are using is key to racing in any form. IMO the rider who can outbrake others and make a pass is that much closer to the front of the field or has a better chance at staying there.

We are in agreement in one area: small things can make a big difference. Why not try out the Ultegras and see if you get the advantage you are looking for?
a few questions??Jimbob
Apr 6, 2001 12:53 PM
What do you suggest using for cables? THe old 89 Deore XT monsters? Those wont fit. Which cables today have less flex? What brake post are you talking about?

What area of braking physics are you suggesting I was mistaken?

Yes, you are right about being able to outbrake people in corners or whatever is a huge advantage in most sports. I know plenty about that due in part to my love of motocross, formula one, etc, etc. But in a crit its all about flowing with the pack. Its tough to be trying to outbrake people in a huge pack. Youre going to cause accidents if thats your plan. I can see on a breakaway descent in a road race where you could shave some seconds but road racing is not a slice and dice sport. If braking was a big deal in road racing they would have better brakes. Period. You must admit these brakes are pretty pathetic even compared to a cheap cantilever (let alone a V brake or disc) properly set up. But for average road riding they get the job done.
A few answers.gimmeaminute
Apr 6, 2001 1:41 PM
Cables? Replace them if they are old with OEM stuff or Aztec or Oddessey. Any teflon coated cable and aftermarket guide will help. (old guides do flex a bit) Make sure the cables are firmly attached to the bars, under your bar tape.

Brake post? Sorry, my misnomer of the threaded mounting point for the brake body. I've had them loosen a bit, especially on carbon forks.

Physics? The majority of your assumptions about braking are without basis. Most of your examples are solutions to brake bias in a given system, not braking ability. Let's stay friends about it, I don't expect all of us to be Engineers. :)

As far as flowing with the pack, flow when you need to but try to get out front stay out there if you can and realize you cannot pass under braking (or power for that matter) when on someones wheel and using the same line as another rider. When in the pack, choose a bit of a different line and use your brakes to your advantage. Face it, many riders see turns as a chance to rest and cruise. Even if you get past 2-3 riders, it's worth it. Try that over 8-10 laps. Use you energy to stay out front. Identify one cruiser every lap and pass him with a squeeze of the levers. You don't even have to work out your grip. (Although odd, many swear by the Heffner Grip Training Plan, delivered to your door. Seems to favor righties.)

Sure our bike brakes are pathetic compared to what is out there. RR may not need the absolute best braking ability, but the advantage comes from comparative braking ability; having better technique/ equipment/set-up than your competition. It's like Hendrix playing an old, crappy guitar. The guitar intrinsically is a POS but he could make it sound better than we ever might.

Still, brakes are important enough to you to post a question, right?

I still say switch and see what happens.
I need further clarification. Enlighten me gimmeaminute!!!jimbob
Apr 6, 2001 2:31 PM
Cables? Mine currently have 1500 miles?? They get more flexy with age?? Thats a new one. I've never heard that. I would use any Shimano cable over an Odyssee or Aztec. Especially DA. Teflon coating? Hows that gonna help with flex? What do you mean by guides?? Do you mean housing? Yes, these can get stretched out and they will never be as good as new. But mine arent like that.
Usually when you see a big movement in your housing when you squeeze the levers is when your housing is tweaked. They are like a big spring coiled together with no gaps. When they get stretched, those gaps will never close until you squeeze the brakes, making them feel terrible.
Brake post? My brakes are tight.

Physics? You lost me on that one. Are you saying youre an engineer and afraid it would go over my head. Try me. I would like to learn some more.

Heffner Plan?? How many minutes and times a day do you do this?? I prefer more natural ways.

Sure, there are people that can brake really good. Like you said, be careful what you ask for you might lock a wheel and blow the tube. Thats just BAD technique. BUT, if your front brake is lacking how are you going to make up for that. When your lever is buried to the h-bar and youve got plenty more tire grip what are you going to do? My rear brake is fine. Could be stronger but Id rather have the light weight there. I wouldnt be surprised if someday we had front and rear specific brakes. I was merely asking if anybody has noticed the extra power of the Ultegra caliper. Maybe its just my setup that is wrong if noone else has noticed.
You said you don't think the flex difference is in the caliper. Why? It wieghs 5-10% more. I guess it could also be in the Ultegra lever.
Heffner Plan?? How many minutes and times a day do you do this??gimmeaminute
Apr 6, 2001 3:30 PM
Cables, like guitar strings, stretch over time. Perhaps you can rule this out. Insure you have good housings, they can collapse slightly and make you feel a "flex". It seems you have this covered. IMO, assume nothing and replace it.

Brakes are tight? Good.

Yes, I'm an Engineer and I just didn't want to get crazy with the cheese wiz about it. As an example, road bikes don't need disc brakes or any other kick-ass system because the traction required to use them to potential does not exist, at least not with a 700x23 tire. We only have $10 worth of traction and our current brakes can eat up at least $9.75 of it, easy. We don't need better brakes because we don't have the traction to support it.

Your average motorcycle has 2 discs up front and on in the rear for mitigation reasons, not pure stopping power. Two discs distribute stopping potential and resulting heat. The size difference front to rear helps create a natural system bias of your 70-30 formula. Same with cars,pick-up trucks or any other vehicle with rear drums. It creates a natural front bias. Nobody wants to see the rear end coming around. Race cars, on the other hand, use identical rotors and calipers on all corners. The bias is adjusted with a valve. Massive brakes make sense considering the heat build up and can use the monumental traction availiable.

Our brake bias valve is the hand and mind. (old age and treachery always overcomes youth and skill)

I doubt the flex is in the caliper because they are both nearly identical in design, both forged aluminium. Weight is not a factor.

Almost forgot, the Heffner plan. Many others exist, but do not compare. I use the double butterfly method. Better direction and control. What did you have in mind? (kind of like this lead in. Can our veiwing number hit 1000?)

Get a set of Ultegras. Put them on and get to it.
What kind of engineer are you? I take it not a mechanical eng.??Jimbob
Apr 6, 2001 4:05 PM
Thats cool youre an engineer. That was one of the things I considered going into. Where do you work? The traction thing you stated seems a little bogus. Everyday cars also have a valve to send the right power to the front and rear. Not just race cars. And the dual discs up front on a motorcycle are for power, not cooling. Sure they do cool better with more surface area but thats just an added benefit to the bigger rotor. I'll see you on Monday. OUt for the weekend. Unless I can sneak into the computer room for a bit. My wife hates that.
Good thing you reconsidered.gimmeaminute
Apr 6, 2001 4:11 PM
What kind of engineer are you? I take it not a mechanical eng.??DrD
Apr 6, 2001 4:50 PM
> Everyday cars also have a valve to send the right power to the front and rear. Not just race cars

Definitely true - but that's not what he meant - in most cars, the rear brakes are intrinsically less powerful than the front (i.e., smaller discs or drums in back compared to larger discs in front) so the bias (in terms of braking power applied to the front vs. the rear) is to a large degree taken care of by the nature of the front and rear brakes - in the case of a race car, with the same brakes front and back, you need to use valving to regulate the power applied to the rear wheel, otherwise you will always lock the back wheels up during hard braking.

> the dual discs up front on a motorcycle are for power, not cooling

I am sure it's a bit of both - maximizing cooling is essential in reducing brake fade.

As far as the cable stretch thing - all wire rope/stranded wire will "stretch" a bit after a little use - this is normal, and most people adjust their brake cable to take care of it - that sort of stretch has nothing to do with braking power. The cables will elastically deform when you load them, which will increase the effort required to brake - larger cable sizes (in terms of cross sectional area) will reduce this effect - however, unless the cables are really thin, this isn't a large effect.

All of the teflon coated stuff (housings, cables) improve the feel of the brakes (in terms of less cable drag) but this friction is easily overcome when you grab the brakes firmly, and isn't really an issue.

flex of the lever body is also an issue, though less so with modern dual pivot brakes - however, as the DA body has been further machined to reduce weight, it will likely flex more than the Ultegra (I have not done a comparison, but have read others who have made that claim/complaint)

flex of the brake stud is an issue with canti brakes, but not really with dual pivot/single mounting point brakes.

The largest improvement in braking power comes through the braking surface on the rim (flat, clean, unglazed surfaces are best) and the pad compound (pads can also glaze/harden, after which their stopping ability is diminished)
Flawgrz mnky
Apr 6, 2001 4:06 PM

Yes, I'm an Engineer and I just didn't want to get crazy with the cheese wiz about it. As an example, road bikes don't need disc
brakes or any other kick-ass system because the traction required to use them to potential does not exist, at least not with a
700x23 tire. We only have $10 worth of traction and our current brakes can eat up at least $9.75 of it, easy. We don't need better
brakes because we don't have the traction to support it.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ End of Snip ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So a MTB tire on loose dirt has better traction and therefore needs disc brakes? I think not. Actually it's all about modulation, the need for better control and raw stopping power. It's not a black and white world - you'll see disc brakes on road bikes sooner than you think. Hey, wait a minute don't tandems have disc brakes and essentially the same contact patch?

It's also best not bring up and issue and then dismiss it with the incorrect assumption that others aren't engineers or don't have the background to understand. It's more indicitive of someone that doesn't have the actual background to discuss something in detail. This board has never avoided discussing a topic because it was too technical.
You poor boy, Giiz mnky, you don't have many friends, do you?gimmeaminute
Apr 6, 2001 4:22 PM
Your MTB assumption leaves out the heat factor as well as dirt, mud and so on. Tandems? The enemy is heat and doubled stopping requirements. Toss out your garbage if you want, we are not talking about tandems ripping in a crit. But, maybe you are.

Does your mother know you are still awake?

We never dismissed a topic, it just had nothing to do with it. Digression, they call it?

Were you born an a**hole, or have you been one your whole life?
I call your bluff. Gimmeami nor DrD are engineers. Its obvious.Zuka
Apr 6, 2001 5:43 PM
posers. Lets get a few things straight. Large rotors are for power. Not cooling. In fact some race cars have carbon rotors that only work when hot. They will not work to full potential when cold. Similar to the tires they run.
Teflon cables will not improve stiffness of a caliper. It will decrease effort slightly and improve feel.
If there is less alloy on the DA caliper there is a great chance it will be more flexy. Depends on where the alloy is missing mostly. Flex means less force exerted on the rim.
The traction of your front tire with all your weight on it on dry pavement is easily more than the power of your road bike calipers. When is the last time you saw a roadie riding a nose-wheelie and then lock up the front. It would probably take a disc brake to lock a front wheel like this. I wonder if the current carbon light weight fork could handle the forces of such a brake. It definitely wasnt designed with these forces in mind. Thats it for now. Maybe more later. If you dont know what youre talking about, dont talk.
You should really take your own advice...DrD
Apr 6, 2001 7:24 PM
>Large rotors are for power. Not cooling

Nice try - while large rotors certainly give increased braking power, that is only part of what they bring to the table - they also give increased surface energy for heat dissipation (and if you ever take a chance to take a look at the rotors, you will see that numerous steps have been taken to help cool even further - namely cross-drilling in the case of the motorcycle, and venting + (in some cases) cross drilling in automotive applications - look at it this way, to slow a car, bike, or motorcycle down, you have to convert kinetic energy into something else - in this case, it's pretty much heat at the braking surface. All other things being constant, by increasing the surface area available for braking, you reduce the net frictional force (in terms of force per unit area) and hence degree of heating which the braking surface (rotor or rim) will experience - keping the temperatures down is very important, as this has a large impact on brake fade - the hotter the braking surface gets, the worse the braking performance is - so you have to keep things cool.

Are you implying that your brakes work better hot? The carbon pad/rotor setup used in F1 and other race cars is done because they understand (unlike you) that the extreme heat generated at the braking surface under race conditions is too great to be effectively dissipated by a conventional metal setup - as a result, a system was designed which could function properly under those conditions.

The tire thing is similar - you can't design a tire to perform well cold which will also perform well (in terms of surviving race conditions) when hot (the heat being generated by road/tire friction) - but as with conventional tires there are limits - too hot and the tires break down and become greasy, just like any normal tire.

>Teflon cables will not improve stiffness of a caliper. It will decrease effort slightly and improve feel. If there is less alloy on the DA caliper there is a great chance it will be more flexy. Depends on where the alloy is missing mostly. Flex means less force exerted on the rim.

Pretty much restating what I said...

>If you dont know what youre talking about, dont talk.

maybe you should take your own advice. You might also consider actually reading posts before responding to them, too.

Since you profess to be an engineer, here's some advice for the future - learn to think.
DrD, I thought you were gimmeaminute hiding behind a new nameZuka
Apr 6, 2001 9:25 PM
Your last posting actually showed some intelligence. Unlike Gimme's rambling. Im not an engineer nor did I profess to be one. I could just tell "Gimme" is definitely not.
Regarding the large rotor issue. I know keeping a system cool is very important. In fact, I have experienced fade many times. Very scary. We have custom air ducts to force air directly to the brakes on our little racer. Have never thought about the concept of the increased size of the rotor to increase cooling. But in pondering this, yes its true. Not only in the increased surface area but also with a larger caliper or an added rotor (like on the front of a motorcycle) the caliper does not have to exert as much pressure to get the desired decrease in speed, thus eliminating heat in more ways than one. BUT.... I still would say this is only a bonus. The size is more for power. They have to have great modulation with minimum effort. But hey, I learned something today. Not only do large rotors stay cooler, they stop faster as well.
Posers. Lets get a few things straight.gimmeaminute
Apr 9, 2001 10:23 AM
Teflon cables will not improve stiffness of a caliper.


When is the last time you saw a roadie riding a nose-wheelie and then lock up the front.



Thats it for now. Maybe more later. If you dont know what youre talking about, dont talk.

RE: I call your bluff. Gimmeami nor DrD are tornado head
Apr 9, 2001 6:15 PM
>When is the last time you saw a roadie riding a nose-wheelie and then lock up the front. It would probably take a disc brake to lock a front wheel like this

Uh, wrong. On more than several occaisions I've locked up my front wheel and endo'd on my ROAD bike with 700 x23's. Most recently being las fall when I installed Suntour Cyclone's (*single* pivot) from Rivendell. I was not even up to speed - more like 18-20 kph. Gimme is right - while a disc on a road bike would indeed provide better stopping power, roadie tires and roadie position on bike show that it'd be almost sheer overkill. Set the rider futher back, lower center of gravity, larger/wider tire or just more upright riding position changes the whole game.

As for disc size, you *use* them because of the better stopping power. They are advertised for better stopping power. But unless you start designing rotors, don't talk about all the aspects that went in to their design.

Eh, flame on... just MHO
Mr Tornado and Gimme, you misunderstood Zuka I think........Jimbob
Apr 10, 2001 8:43 AM
I think you guys are misunderstanding Zuka. Everyone knows you can easily ride a nose wheelie on a road bike with a healthy squeeze and some forward weight transfer with your body. He wrote, "when was the last time you saw a guy riding a nose wheelie and THEN lock up the front wheel?" Key word is then. I believe his point was that a 700x23 tire has plenty more traction available. Countering Gimme's claim that a 23c tire only has so much grip so we couldnt use better brakes if we had them. When you have 100% of your weight on that wheel like when in a nose wheelie youre not going to be able to lock it up due to loss of traction. Correct me if Im wrong Zuka.
Also, Gimme, I believe the forces he was refering to are the brake forces from a disc. Not from just simply riding on the front tire. The braking forces come from the bottom of the fork instead of the top of the crown. It would be an easy fix but would undoubtedly add some weight.
Good to have you back, JBgimmeaminute
Apr 10, 2001 9:04 AM
Have you mounted the Ultegra to the front yet? I get the feeling you are our only hope.
re: Mr Tornado and Gimme, you misunderstood Zuka I tornado head
Apr 10, 2001 9:25 AM
Hmm... I dunno. This stems back to, do we need better brakes than dual pivot sidepulls on a roadbike? And, no, I don't believe so. With the current roadie setup, you can easily lock up the front tire *without* trying to shift the weight forward - even hanging off the back of your seat if'n's you're not careful. So why go with disc on a roadbike instead of sidepulls when with the current setup we can kill ourselves just fine, thank you?

And it'd be even easier to lock up if you were riding a nose wheelie - you're weight is already most of the way up and over.

Now, tandems - wheelbase is much longer, weight distribution is much different, as well as being more weight. Case for disc or V-brakes, you betcha.
Let me rephrase....JImbob
Apr 10, 2001 1:42 PM
Lets say your on the brakes for everything theyve got. Youre rear wheel is 2 inches off the ground. And your arms are fully extended to push you back to counteract the forward push.In this situation, have you ever seen a front wheel break traction and skid on dry pavement? I think not. There is so much traction in this situation. Thats what I (and probably Zuka also) meant by lock up. Not to go over the bars. What my point here is this; we have much more traction than we do brakes.

This was in response to Gimme's $10 theory. See above.
Well Saidgrz mnky
Apr 10, 2001 2:13 PM
Should make things intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer.

It all comes down to the geometry of the situation and the realization that there is a dividing line between lock-up/over the bars (CG too high/forward) vs. lock-up/front breaks traction (CG well aft/low). Just 'cause you've only seen the former doesn't mean that the later doesn't exist. There's also that whole grey area as to how quickly and with how much control you can approach the limit. It's also worth noting that you don't need lock-up to achieve either scenario.
Yer Killin' Megrz mnky
Apr 9, 2001 9:45 AM
Get back under your rock.

You specifically stated that the reason for not using disc brakes on road bikes was due to limited traction. I simply pointed out that this wasn't true and cited some examples where traction was the same or less and disc brakes were used. You then countered with other reasons as to why tandems and MTBs might use them while completely abondoning the "limited traction theory." Point is there is sufficient traction for road bikes to use disc brakes. If you can't maintain a position or don't have the back ground to discuss a topic it's better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you're a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

Flattery will get you no where - violating the forum pact will get you kicked off.
650 people only wish I was.....gimmeaminute
Apr 9, 2001 9:56 AM
Take my advice. Get a perscription for Valium and take double the dose.

Please explain to all that are reading this, your justification for being rude, abraisive, and generally arguing via Ad Hom with posters.

I'm sure you have something to bring to this MB that is valuable.

We are waiting to see it.

Anything less will prove my point. It's your ball.
Pot Calling Kettle Blackgrz mnky
Apr 9, 2001 12:11 PM
Know what I mean?

When you write in all caps it means you're yelling. As long as you want to shirk your statements we've got nothing more than a pissing contest. MINE'S BIGGER.
Mine is really small, still I expected more from an MBAgimmeaminute
Apr 9, 2001 12:39 PM
Than that limp cliche. But, you are showing your true colors. I've read several posts and many others agree that you have a problem getting along with others. Chill out.

By the way, the yelling is in your head. Caps is just caps.

Now relax and play nice or no dessert.
Heffner Plan?? How many minutes and times a day do you do this??Skip
Apr 6, 2001 7:53 PM
I am not an engineer, and don't mean this in any inflammatory way - just a serious question that I would appreciate answered. You mention a 70/30 ratio of front to back effectiveness to the brakes so that the rear end doesn't come around or swap ends. Am I correct so far? It would seem to me better to have equal braking effectiveness, or maybe a slight rear bias to prevent this end swapping. Seems if the front end had more powerful/effective brakes than the rear, that's when the rear would have a greater likelihood of swapping ends. Am I missing something here? Please enlighten me. Thanks.
Skip, youre a brave soul to enter this one. Imagine your bike orZuka
Apr 6, 2001 9:40 PM
car with only rear brakes. YOure going 50mph and all of a sudden you need to stop. Can you stop fast? No. You have a natural weight transfer to the front. Very little traction at the rear. If youre traveling in a straight line there should be no tendency for the rear to catch up to the front. If youre turning and your rear locks up you lose control. So to summarize, your front wheels, in hard breaking, have almost all the traction. In essence, 70/30 brake distribution is equal more or less, like you stated, due to the weight transfer.Its the opposite in acceleration. Ever seen a front wheel drive dragster? All the weight goes to the rear so thats where the power needs to come from. Where theres weight theres traction. Ride a wheelie up a hill on your mountain bike and see if you can get the wheel to lose traction. Close to impossibe becuase you have 100% weight on that tire. Isnt this a roadie site????
Skip, youre a brave soul to enter this one. Imagine your bike orSkip
Apr 7, 2001 10:08 AM
Jack Hoff & Lenny BruceBreck
Apr 9, 2001 10:02 PM
Your are right on. Forgot to mention my bud Jack Hoff tried the PLAN and got a sore arm from it, and right arm it was. Nice Piks too.

Lenny Bruce once quipped that his mother said if he kept "doing it" he would go blind. So he said he would just try it till he needed glasses.

Mebee we will get this up to 1K Hits after all. Keep feeding the quarters in and pulling back the plunger. A Jimmy Hendrix Pin Ball machine is what we need, for Leftys of course. And try not to TILT the damn thing.
If only laser surgery existed back thengimmeaminute
Apr 10, 2001 8:00 AM
Mr. Bruce could have gone to 20/250-300 and least would be advertising it via specticals. I lost my vision by the 11th grade. By the power of chi, I managed to reverse the effect by switch hitting. By duration and intensity has weakened, but I'm still in the fight. Are we still talking about cycling?
Or Retro Active Abortions....grz mnky
Apr 10, 2001 3:36 PM
Lawdy, lawdy, I crack myself up sometimes....
Not That! What would we have done without you, GM?gimmeaminute
Apr 11, 2001 8:51 AM
I'm a crappy writer and usually unimaginative. Hey, but good thing you didn't get D&Cd'....I wouldn't seem as snappy a whip. Actually, you couldn't have endured such a process. That procedure is performed one oriface North of your homeland. Still, glad to have you around to make us all feel better.

On second thought, I wonder if we could get rid of you via
Rectum Active Abortion? Right up your home alley. That's the ticket.
Caliper tornado head
Apr 9, 2001 6:30 PM
Isn't this the reason that the new Campy record has the option of a single pivot rear caliper?

Geez, with my 10 year old NOS I'm a year ahead of the wieght-weenie curve!

And for the most part I have learned to avoid endo's when braking heavily... :*)
Pico Perch works better than Mirrow-Lure.Breck
Apr 8, 2001 7:06 AM
Was a fishin' fool when wuz a kid Texas late 40's. Originally trot lines for big ol' Mud Cats, Eagle Claw hooks preferred and Trinity River bottom Earth Worms worked the best , hands down. Got the first Shakespeare Spin-Cast Wonder Reel & Rod ~1958. Could hardly catch mud cat's with it. Sun Fish,Blue Gill, Perch, Crappie, and Bass, yes. Even a Gar once on a Heddon Sonic. For ol' Sam Bass, the Pico Perch worked best. The L&S Mirror Lure a close second. Now that Mirror Lure was jointed; Pico was solid. Ever try un-jointing the mirror lure and attaching it to the rear half of the Pico? If were still into Bass fishing would give it a try, except the Old Lures are collectors' items now and worth more than buying the fish at the market.

My Grand Pap once told me that 90% of the Lures were designed to catch the Fisherman, not the Fish. Same with bike parts, mebee. Have not tried the modern dual canti Ultegra Vs the Dura-Ace, but do have an old set of DA single pull. Have tried an older 1995 Shimano 105 dually Vs the '95 BRS single pull. The 105's are better stoppers, hands down on steep fast down hill curves, evenly matched on flat Desert highways where great brakes are not needed. For the Mountains I may put a the lighter BRS on the rear with the 105 still doing chores up front. Mebee knott, as am away from that "Light" phaze. Less Filling.

As to the under-water drag, fluid mechanics, sound, sight, taste, feel, leader wt. of the lures ... may be sim to the technical discussion of bike brakes, etc. AND I do admire them so don't get me wrong. But all experts tend to disagree as are fond of their own Pet Theories. Don't know myself, and before I forget, the Heddon Dare-Devil red & white striped is a hell of a spoon type lure for Sun Fish and Blue Gill, not so much bass.

FYI, early on American auto's were slow to change the rear drum power brakes out for discs because of parking brake issues. My 1968 5-speed manual Volvo had discs front and rear; the rear designed like a Top Hat, with the brim the discs and the hat extended section housing small drum brakes. It's early "ABS"-like modulated brake system had one side two front wheels and left rear; the other two front wheels and the right rear.

It's Yuban, not Folgers this mornin', Guyz
I Expected a 1000 Rating with this one......gimmeaminute
Apr 9, 2001 7:31 AM
I'll settle for the 600 plus change. Thanks......
Wow, Wade your post had as much to do w/ cycling as ours did.Jimbob
Apr 9, 2001 7:35 AM
Im gonna put on an Ultegra caliper up front and check it out. I'll let you guys know how it feels. Gimmeaminute you never told us what industry you engineer in and what type of engineer you are. Fill us in. Happy trails.
Easy. I'm not an Engineer.gimmeaminute
Apr 9, 2001 7:50 AM
I just made the statement that we all can't be engineers.
Then, the post took on a life of it's own. by the way, I am proud that it seemed I came back to life as another poster. I have no idea who it was but, we do have similiar styles.

Do you think we could get an even higher rating debating threaded -vs-threadless headsets? I could create 1000's of pet theories......and draw out a few more. I can see it know, tempers flairing in the cubbies......

By the way, I stumbled across this site and just might stay. I hope to keep it entertaining.
Bingo (nm)grz mnky
Apr 10, 2001 8:57 AM
Apr 10, 2001 9:14 AM
Amazing speed, considering your double-digit handicap in the pay attention quadrant. I'm surprised it took you so long and didn't weigh in on the carbon fork-maybe-couldn't-handle-the-stress-of-braking Mr advanced composite. Sorry, just feeling surly today. Also, I apologize for not writing in just lowercase letters, that means whispering you know.
Pico Perch works better than Mirrow-Lure.Breck
Apr 9, 2001 8:33 AM
May have been one of the few except you guys read all the scripture and tried to follow it to it's logical/ illogical [:) conclusion. Luv boxing and would opt to be a corner man for either of the contributors. Boxing of course have weight classes, and this technical discussion could too, gimmeaminute & jimbob being the Heavy Weight contenders so far. "And in this corner fighting out of the North Side Mechanical Gym of Chicago is ....!

My suspicion is that it may have been a troll (-n, 1570, fishing reel; from the verb [Barnhart]), a good one if it were, and lively reading if not.

Worked for 30 years with "traindrivers" (engineers [:) but am not one, that is don't have the Sheep skin. From aircraft (flight mechanics group, military apps); space (aero-thermodynamics group- first orbital space workshop; nuclear power plant construction in Calif., Ariz., Tex. - coordination between engineering & construction regards activity packages (monthly work windows); Inertial Gyros in Nuclear Submarines - manufacturing proposals and estimating; & SomeMores, etc.

All engineers have worked for always have these lively debates about their favorite subjects and am all ears, sometimes to tears :)

Cheers & make you'all honorary members of the bgcc.
& lest you be suspicious, this fine group has some heavy weights mixed in amongst us(me) fly-weights.

again, cheers
bgcc ... bubble gum cigar club.
Yikes, did not intend to leave Anyone out(!)Breck
Apr 9, 2001 9:20 AM
Ment to include all who responded to the Post and did not mean to imply gimmeaminute and jimbob the only "heavy-weight" contenders.

Would be great to get a Round Table going a the local mountain coffee shop and would volunteer to moderate it as that is more my back ground. A cup of your favorite brew to fuel the discussion, mine being Cowboy Coffee made the Folger's way.

Cowboy Coffee, Old Trail Drive Recipe:
One quart of water, one pound of Folgers. Boil for one hour, throw in the horse shoe; if it floats it's ready.
The biggest mistake a tenderfoot makes is adding too much water.

Hot lips in Tennessee shad works better than both..quadzilla
Apr 10, 2001 5:01 PM